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Thread: Calling all daito collectors

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    Question Calling all daito collectors

    Aloha!

    I've been collecting knives, swords, & blades of all shapes & sizes for many years. I have found that all of my six daito & four wakizashi are made of Damascus (wootz) steel, & now I am wondering what percentage of your daito are plain old carbon steel versus Damascus steel.

    For those of you who aren't familiar with Damascus steel, please check out http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/ama...der_sword.html for more information.

    Ken
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    Traditionally made Japanese swords are not made of damascus/wootz. It's a different process.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Arrow

    I beg to differ. Unless you are choosing to pick on the small difference between the original wootz process & what today is called Damascus, the processes are the same.

    To see what I mean, check out http://www.historyofmilitary.com/The...87011798X.html
    which shows, for example, how the harder martensitic iron juxtaposes with the software baensite to form the hamon. I've been a chemical engineer for 36 years, & assure you that the processes are identical.

    Maeda-Sensei has examined all of my daito, & we have had long discussions about the various bladesmiths, & history of the blades & their manufacturing process. His father's company in Tokyo still makes much of the steel that is used today.

    Ken
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    Is the wootz you're talking about what is sometimes referred to as crucible steel? Uh, maybe water-pattern damascus? (I don't know the terminology very well)

    Are you saying that the inner core that made the edge was made from this? (not arguing, I dunno nothing, so no need)
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    Charles Lockhart
    FBI: From da' Big Island

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    Ken - you can find discussions wherein knowledgable people disagree with you on swordforum and kendo world. The techniques are somewhat similar but different. The Japanese method was essentially making up for really crappy source materials.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Default Wootz

    You've actually asked a whole bunch of questions here.

    Wootz is a very old process that was probably invented in India about 1800 years ago. To simplify greatly, iron was mixed with glass & melted over charcoal or coal. The iron picked up carbon from the charcoal & became steel, while the glass removed many impurities. The resulting low-carbon steel wasn't that good (to be honest), but the process gave a great surface pattern.

    The Japanese, among others, took that process a large step forward around 400 years later. The creation of the steel wasn't a lot different, but their iron wasn't particularly good quality, & thus the steel it made varied from good to rotten.

    So they began using more than one type of steel, & then started folding the steel, over & over. This gave them an even better surface pattern, & eventually they started placing the harder steel (martensite) at the blade's edge. The appearance of the steel was much better than wootz. I'm not sure when the term "Damascus" was applied, as that process' name came from Spain. Check out http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/ama...ed/t5_1_1.html for a lot more info than I have.

    Crucible steel is a different process, where a fluxing material is added to the iron & carbon in the crucible, & the resulting steel is then poured out into molds.

    More than you wanted, right?

    Ken
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    Exclamation Modern-day Damascus steel

    Here are a couple of examples of how beautiful today's Damascus steel has become. These knives are created by a good friend, Craig Steketee:




    Ken
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    Default Oops! Only one image at a time, I guess

    Here's the second Damascus knife:
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    Default One

    And the third Damascus knife:
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    Default

    That which we call a rose...

    Is it a Fuller or a bo-hi?

    Is it Damascus or forge-folded tamahagane?

    However I believe there is a qualitative difference between what are commonly called Damascus blades and classical Japanese blades, even if the processes are superficially similar. The size and distinction of the various layers, for example.

    If you're into that sort of thing, I suppose the Damascus knives pictured might be considered beautiful, but then some people like Cadillacs with gold plating and leopard-skin seats. I prefer the more sedate factory models.

    Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Default Calling Dan Harden...

    Where's Dan when you need him?
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
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    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

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    Default Re: Wootz

    Originally posted by Ken-Hawaii
    More than you wanted, right?
    Not enough, actually. The Japanese weren't looking for a surface pattern, they were looking to homogenise the steel and control the carbon content. I'm no metallurgist, but the information I provided in the previous links argues pretty strongly that damascus is not the same as the Japanese process.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Sigh.

    And here all I am is curious whether anyone out there also collects daito with (what looks to me like) Damascus steel.

    Ah, well....

    Ken
    Ken Goldstein
    --------------------------------
    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    Would you mind taking a pic or three of your Japanese swords to show us what you mean? I've never seen Katana with the degree of color variation that you frequently see in "Damascus" steel. I'm curious to see what you're talking about.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

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    It seems to me like you're asking how many people collect Japanese swords made from forged folded steel. Nihonto, in the traditional sense, were and are pretty much all made that way. It's one of the characteristics that actually make it a Nihonto. There exist a great number of non-traditionally made swords, too, of course, made of non-folded steel, and I suppose people collect these as well, but they're not Nihonto.

    Whether or not the steel of a traditional Japanese sword can be called Damascas or not, I don't really care either way but I'm quite certain there are a number of people who'd be happy to argue with you...
    Ric Flinn

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