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Thread: Calling all daito collectors

  1. #31
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    Default Fake Nihonto

    Scott & Sabastien, thank you for your info. I have a meeting with Maeda-Sensei this evening, & will bring along the blade to discuss.

    Ken
    Ken Goldstein
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  2. #32
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    Default Updates?

    Any updates for us Ken?
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
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    No update, Chris, as we had a visiting nanadan Sensei from Japan on Saturday.

    I'm hoping to meet privately with Maeda-Sensei in the next few days to discuss just what it is I have. No one is more curious than I am!

    Ken
    Ken Goldstein
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    Ken--any news? Or did I miss it in another thread?

    Thanks!
    Chris McCartney-Melstad

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    Hi, Chris. No, you didn't miss anything. I've been overcome by events -- my roof is being replaced as I write, with a hurricane bearing down on us. Just the type of "adventure" I don't really need...!

    What I evidently have is a couple of shin-gunto, which is a Japanese military sword often used in battle. There was a lot more detailed information, but unfortunately the expert who came over to help Sensei & me last week spoke only Japanese, & my vocabulary is woefully lacking in the terms he used. Sensei will explain more as we both have time.

    He was fairly sure that my gunto in the photos dates back to around 1928, Chris, & is probably of the Showa type, although I have no idea what that means. It was handmade, rather than by machine, & does have a hamon, although I couldn't see exactly what he was showing us, even with a magnifier.

    It's definitely not an "art" sword that would be valued by a collector (except me), & can safely be used for tameshigiri. It's almost too sharp, as the layered steel at the cutting edge feels like it's grabbing whatever I cut.

    So I guess that "real" versus "art" are two different things, Chris. I'm continuing to study nihonto, but as I like the layered appearance of my gunto, I don't feel that I was ripped off.

    Ken
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

  6. #36
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    Originally posted by Ken-Hawaii
    ...What I evidently have is a couple of shin-gunto, which is a Japanese military sword often used in battle....He was fairly sure that my gunto in the photos dates back to around 1928, Chris, & is probably of the Showa type, although I have no idea what that means. It was handmade, rather than by machine, & does have a hamon, although I couldn't see exactly what he was showing us, even with a magnifier....It's almost too sharp, as the layered steel at the cutting edge feels like it's grabbing whatever I cut...
    Ken, your sword didn't look like any gunto that I was aware of; but too be sure I just consulted Fuller's & Gregory's Military Swords of Japan: 1868 - 1945. There is no reference there to a blade of the construction and mei style as yours either. I don't know what to say; I don't know who your sensei is, nor what his qualifications are as a sword appraiser, but I'm sure baffled -- it just doesn't look like a Showa-to to me.

    BTW, if the blade feels like it's grabbing at your cutting target it's not from being "too sharp." Either your hasuji is not optimal, or the blade is not sharpened correctly.

    I hope you are able to solve this mystery. Good luck.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    As I had never even heard of a gunto, Brian, I'm certainly not the one to dissent. But it wasn't Sensei who did the examination, but rather one of his friends who is the expert. I'm sure you can tell from this thread that I have a lot to learn.

    I would like to collect a few reference books on nihonto, & it sounds like I should start with Military Swords of Japan. If you have other recommendations, Brian, please advise. Thanks!

    Ken
    Ken Goldstein
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    Originally posted by gendzwil
    Traditionally made Japanese swords are not made of damascus/wootz. It's a different process.
    Strange, the swordsmith Yasutsugu of Etchizen (circa 1700) inscribed on his nakago that he made his swords with imported steel - chiefly wootz steel from India.
    David F. Craik

  9. #39
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    Originally posted by gendzwil
    Traditionally made Japanese swords are not made of damascus/wootz. It's a different process.
    Originally posted by Soulend
    Strange, the swordsmith Yasutsugu of Etchizen (circa 1700) inscribed on his nakago that he made his swords with imported steel - chiefly wootz steel from India.
    Yasutsugu apperently wasn't a traditionalist. He may have inscribed his use of wootz on his blades precisely because it was unusual.

    Even so, one could use wootz and still forge/fold it in a manner that would minimalize the banding seen in Damascene blades from other countries.

    Originally posted by Ken-Hawaii
    I would like to collect a few reference books on nihonto, & it sounds like I should start with Military Swords of Japan. If you have other recommendations, Brian, please advise. Thanks!
    I also recommend The Craft of the Japanese Sword by Kapp, Kapp, and Yoshihara, The Samurai Sword: A Handbook by John Yumoto (some outdated facts, but a lot of reference material), and The New Generation of Japanese Swordsmiths by Tamio Tsuchiko.

    Good reading, and good luck in your continued studies.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Geez, can't believe I mistyped 'Echizen'.
    David F. Craik

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    Originally posted by Soulend
    Geez, can't believe I mistyped 'Echizen'.
    I can; I do stuff like that all the time.

    There's a name for that type of error, but I don't recall it.

    "Etch" is an English word, so you get Etchizen instead of Echizen.

    One of the most common examples is expresso (express) instead of espresso, both in writing and in speaking (and singing in Bob Dylan's case).

    -----

    Ken,

    If you're interested as much in collecting as in the fundamentals of swordsmithing, there are a number of resources out there that list famous smiths, known collectable swords, methods of identification, etc.

    That's not my field of expertise, but you could probably get a list of books and pamplets from someone at swordforum.com. I believe some of them in English are from the Hawley Library.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    You actually made Linda & me sit down & give some serious thought to our nihonto (& other blade) collecting.

    At a very conservative estimate, we have 25 blades of various types & vintages in the house. These range from basic European fencing foils, sabers, & epees, to the aforementioned nihonto, & doesn't count the 75-100 knives in our collection. We came to the conclusion that we really just like sharp, pretty things.

    We had an open house at our dojo this afternoon (read that as some food, along with lots of alcohol), & happened to host an iai-do nanadan sensei from, I believe, Chiba, who was carrying on an interesting conversation on iaito, & how they are derived from the daito & tachi of old. My Japanese vocabulary is sorely lacking (as I think I mentioned), but he showed us the shinken he uses for practice, & it was absolutely gorgeous!

    My wife & I are engineers with decades of materials engineering, & so we're also interested in how blades are formed & processed. I appreciate the references you provided, Brian, & will purchase them from eBay or Amazon in the near future.
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

  13. #43
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    Originally posted by Ken-Hawaii
    ...My wife & I are engineers with decades of materials engineering, & so we're also interested in how blades are formed & processed....
    The Craft of the Japanese Sword should definitely be your first purchase then. It includes phase diagrams and lots of big words and phrases like "austentite," "cementite," and "critical temperature" that mean almost nothing to me. And formulas like "Fe203 + CO -> 2Fe + CO2" (of course the formula has some subscripted numbers that I can't reproduce here).

    It's all Greek to me, but you might enjoy it.

    Happy Reading.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Just to double-check, Brian, is that the book by Kapp, Kapp, & Yoshihara?
    Ken Goldstein
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

  15. #45
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    Originally posted by Ken-Hawaii
    Just to double-check, Brian, is that the book by Kapp, Kapp, & Yoshihara?
    That's correct: Leon & Hiroko Kapp, and Yoshindo Yoshihara. Photographs by Tom Kishida.

    Publishied by Kodansha, © 1987. I don't know if there's a newer edition out, but I think I saw it not too long ago at Kinokuniya Books, so it should still be available.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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