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Thread: Calling all daito collectors

  1. #46
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    Default The Craft of the Japanese Sword

    Okay, I just checked Amazon.com, and they do have it; both new and used.

    Here's the link:
    The Craft of the Japanese Sword
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  2. #47
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    I just bought it on eBay for $32.37.

    Looking forward to a lot of studying! Thanks!

    Ken
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

  3. #48
    Usagi Yojimbo Guest

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    Ken, you might want to look here. Note #11.

    Adios-oh!

  4. #49
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    Default

    Actually, I'd like to drag this thread back a little in terms of what's being discussed. To my knowledge, there are several different definitions for "damascus" in use (not to mention a derivitive word, damascene, which refers to embellishment of metal with things like gold/silver leaf).

    Definition 1: Damascus. Made from a specific type of steel called wootz. Wootz is known for having particularly large carbon formations in it's crystal structure (compared to other steel smelting processes), so great care is needed during forging, especially temperature control to avoid too much phase state change to the crystal structure.

    Definition 2: Damascus. The steel has a layered/banded visual appearance created by forge-welding and folding multiple pieces of steel together. Also known as "pattern welding". Very intricate patterns can be achieved. That flag pattern isn't etched onto the surface, it goes ALL the way through the steel. Cut through it at any angle and at any point, and you'll see the same pattern in the steel. It's created by stacking several different grades of steel together in very precise patterns, forge-welding the pieces together into a single solid block of steel and some folding to make the pattern repeat itself through the finished bar. The different grades of steel in the pattern have different visible shades to them when the steel is polished.

    Personally, I prefer to use "damascus" to describe items made from wootz, and call pattern welding exactly what it is, pattern welding, but other people do call pattern welding "damascus".

    Whether or not the traditional tamahagane/orishigane steel produced from a Japanese tatara smelter is wootz is something I don't know. I do know that much of the hada (grain) pattern visible in the steel of nihinto which has a damascus appearance is actually a form of pattern welding, produced by the forging process. In this modern day and age we're used to thinking of steel as something that comes in big solid shiney blocks. Tamahagane is not like that, it actually looks more like rock than steel. The smith would take many small pieces of tamahagae steel and forge weld them together into a solid block of steel. This welding process has the same effect as pattern welding, visible banding in the steel forms along the weld seams. This banding forms the hada (grain) pattern visible in the polished blade. Then the smith goes through a folding process as part of preparing the steel for shaping into a blade (a lot like a baker kneading the dough for bread before putting it into the oven to bake). It's known that varying the power of the hammer strikes on the steel as it's folded and re-welded back onto itself creates visible effects in the hada. Different ways of folding the steel also create different variations in the hada. Different hada patterns.
    Gareth Bull
    Melbourne, Australia

  5. #50
    jclott Guest

    Default a bladesmiths response

    wootz is blended , damascus is layered , they do not look even close
    in visual appearance, albeit they both come from A common and very old
    process. if your blades are REALLY wootz,
    you are very fortunate.

  6. #51
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    nm
    David F. Craik

  7. #52
    Dan Harden Guest

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    The pattern and banding you see in Wootz is a result of its segregation of differing carbides in the crucible and in its cooling from the outside in- which produced a radiating dendritic structure. You can see vaguely similar looking structures in some classes of meteorites-the discovery of which is attributed to Widmannstatten. In solution the Crystaline structure it attribute to dynamic temperature changes from the liqued phase to a slow cooling and resultant effects on the varying chemical make up of some meteores. It does NOT have the same chemical make up of Wootz and therefore does not exhibit similar mechanical properties.

    As for names and such......Damascus stuck as a name due to the trade route from which it was obtained. Damascus! Then, as now you could purchase mechanical layered steel as well as Wootz from the same location. In fact many attempts were made to mechanically reproduce the “look” of watered steel-but no attempt produced a blade with the outstanding mechanical properties of Wootz. In truth they were nothing more than a repeat of the Merovingian sword smithing technique.
    A rather simple explanation of the Wootz pattern can be attributed to the segregation of the high carbon crystals forming in bands that are slower cooling then the surrounding solution. These are best fromed by slow cooling of the entire cake as left in the crucible. Think of it like an elongated annealing process.
    The Wootz cakes were then forged at low temperature to maintain the dendritic structure. Higher temps would dissolve the pattern. In fact many cakes were purchased and the European smiths could not forge them. When struck they would crack and break. There is a secret to forging a Wootz cake that keeps the dendritic structure intact that few men knew. Which of course gave even more fuel to the Wootz legend. The smiths knew of the outstanding performance characteristics -yet were completely unable to duplicate them-even when given the raw product to start with!
    As for using Wootz for Japanese blades-the Japanese process takes place at a temperature that would completely dissolve and dendritic structure and the steel would then revert to a VERY high carbon structure that could not EVER display a hamon. It would have to be forged at high temperature in an oxidizing atmosphere to reduce the carbon content to manageable levels. Below .85% would be best.
    Hamon are thick in a lower carbon steel 1050 -1060 and get progressively thinner up to about 1095. After that they all but disappear. The carbon phase diagram turns at .80%
    You can see Japanese smiths occasionaly burning steel due to the high and uneven distribution of carbon in Tamahagane. In general the welding/ melting/burning temps. of steel is -
    a. The higher the carbon the lower the temp.
    b. The lower the carbon the higher the temp.
    It makes forge welding certain steels with others more difficult than similar carbon materials. I used to make Katana out of pure electrolytic iron which is 99.97% pure that then had carburized. I tried inserting shims of pure iron for increased pattern in the folds. What a pain. Even in a reducing atmosphere the weld temps were so far off it wasn't worth it. I switched to 1018...no trouble.
    Think of that as an example: just .18% difference in carbon. Such a small percentage which produces drastically different results.

    The earlier post about the Japanese smith using Wootz is
    a. improbable
    and
    b. quite meaningless

    He would have had to treat it like he did very high carbon Tamahagane pieces. Decarburize it in an oxygen rich fire to reduce the carbon content which in turn would have
    a. obliterated any inherent crystal structure that made the Wootz superior steel in the first place.
    and
    b. lowered the carbon and most likely folded it with conventional Tamahagane to accept the shallow hardening properties to create a hamon.
    Thus
    c. In that day before modern testing-no one but him would have known what he began with in the first place.
    d. It is my opinion that all that Japanese smith did was take a superior product and ruin it to make a mechanically inferior (compared to wootz) but prettier blade.

    There is no....comparison as to the mechanical properties of folded layered steel and true Wootz. Some Wootz has carbon approaching that of cast iron. Try that in a simple eutectoid steel and it will be extremely brittle. The only steels that can approach that level of carbon and remain ductile for in service use are the new powder metallurgy steels. For service they are the world leaders and finest steels made.
    The kobuse method the Japanese use creates a soft core that is completely unnecessary and in fact weakens the blade. The old methods were supposedly simple folded billets-using more precious high carbon steel-which produced better blades. Many of these complex folding methods were a rather modern re-invention of Japanese smiths. Similar to their European smithing cousins trying to duplicate wootz-they were trying to recreate the look of older blades of their own culture (Kamakura blades) and in the attempt came up with all manner of complex foldings.
    You can have any modern smith make you the various versions none will surpass a modern single billet. It’s all about the look now.
    Nice coffee break
    Back to work
    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 13th August 2004 at 17:19.

  8. #53
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    Smile

    Thanks Dan, that was great! We appreciate you taking the time.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  9. #54
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    Dan, you never cease to amaze me...

    Thanks,
    Ron

  10. #55
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    Default

    Thanks Dan, that was most informative.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  11. #56
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    Thank you for a most informative explanation, Dan.

    You get more done during a coffee break than most people do all day!
    Ken Goldstein
    --------------------------------
    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

  12. #57
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    Default Steel cable

    Hi Dan

    Have you heard of woven steel cable being used for a sword blades? I recall reading, at some time in the past, that when brought to welding temperature the individual wires can be forged into a lattice or interwoven piece of iron. And that this type of metallurgy produces a very high quality sword blade more so than other materials.

    Do you have any knowledge of such? and moreover any opinion on its use in forged blade production?

    Many thanks
    Greg Clarke
    清隆会 Shinto Muso Ryu
    兵法 Niten Ichi Ryu

    "Seek out the middle of the two we's in I"

  13. #58
    Cliff Schooling Guest

    Default Cable Forged blades

    Hi Greg,
    Sorry to butt in here, but I've been watching the correspondence with some interest, being a bladesmith of sorts and an avid collector of Nihonto I thought I might offer some info. Forged Cable blades make a very good knife, the patterning can be a lot more subtle than some of the other steel combinations of laminated steel (or Damascus or whatever). You forge the braided steel cable the same way you forge a billet of steel to produce a laminated billet. You must make sure the cable has no Polyprop core and is very clean, not a good idea to use old cable. Weld the ends of the cable with a gas welder, heat it to cherry, flux it, reheat to welding temperature and start forging. There is a particular author called Jim Hrisoulas who specialises in this sort of work. His books are very clear and informative. Try a search on Amazon or toddle down to your local Library and ask them to order it for you.
    A point about Japanese swords and their metallurgy, the reason you still had a grain in them was the Japanese hadn't figured out a more efficient way of smelting steel. The reason you see a rapid reduction in swords made with laminated steels in a complex manner is in Europe we figured out how to make large quantities of good quality steel with blast furnaces where all the impuirities are removed as slag, thereby removing the need to constantly fold and weld the steel to remove impurities and even out the carbon content in a batch of steel. This is incredably wasteful on the steel and fuel, you loose in the region of 10% of your mass every time you fold, so 10 folds resulting in a billet of over 1000 layers and would start off at a billet of say 2lb and end up with it weighing less than 3/4lb. There are many existing examples of very finely worked blades from the Vendel era (the era that predates the Viking era) that are more complex in their assembly than any Japanese blade. A Roman Gladius was found in London with a complex construction and in the Anglo Saxon ship burial at Sutton Hoo in Essex, was a sword of quite remarkable construction, which a copy has been made afetr carefull study of X-Rays. Try following this link to see a copy of the sword. Interestingly the smith who produced the copy said he could replicate the quality of work of the original smith!! http://www.wuffings.co.uk/MySHPages/SHTreasure/SHSword.htm
    What we don't have is the surviving examples in good condition as the Japanese so we cannot say for sure if they used a similar technique as Yaki-Ire. The real art with a Nihonto is it's heat treatment. The Yaki-Ire is the most remarkable spark of genius.

    Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu
    Cliff Schooling
    Last edited by Cliff Schooling; 9th October 2004 at 10:36.

  14. #59
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    This will be a long post.......

    Sorry ken your blade appears to be fake the hada is too prominant and no hamon.

    I'll give you a brief over-view of things.

    First off folding a bar of steel actually causes carbon content to decrease with every fold but it allows the carbon still in it to become more evenly disperced. Using modern steel such as swedish powdered steel you actualy cause it to be slightly weaker.

    Heres how a nihonto is made from the very beggining. A licensed smith calls in an order for tamahagane which takes a year for it to be sent as its mined from one place. Depending on his rank he'll either get top quality stuff to low grade. Iron sand is cooked in a furnace with charcoal the iron slowly absorbs carbon and becomes a lump of steel and iron which is known as tamahagane. This is sent to the smith. The smith grades it and may turn it into a bar and mark it for later. The smith then takes the bar and figures out the amount of times he needs to fold it before it becomes pure and the carbon content is pure. The bar is then flattened out and attached to a rod then the bar is cut in half then bent onto itself inbetween an acid flux is put in to prevent oxidization. The two layers is then hammer forged together and flattened and lengthened this is repeated untill required. Next one of two things happen the bar is shaped into its proper shape or its preped for lamination through the use of tools. Next it is paired off with other bars of varying degrees of carbon content and then combined as seen in the diagram
    Code to different types of steel
    Joel Habbershaw

  15. #60
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    http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/laminate.htm

    The blade is then given its shape and geometry and some sori. Then the blade is coated with clay with a heavy coat on the back and a thin coat on the edge. The blade is then put under a low heat and then quickly put in cold water. This causes the edge to become hard but keeps the back soft. It also causes the blade to curve more and creats the hamon and other activity. Then the blade is cleans and usualy signed and dated and given a habaki.

    Next it would be sent to a togeshi where it would be polished with stones to make the geometry more defined, create the yokote and bring out activity such as the hamon, hada, nie,noi, hataraki and boushi. Then its given a nuigi treatment which brings out the Ji-hada, it also prevents rust. After that the mune and shinogi-ji is burnished flatening the surface giving it a mirror effect and prevent rust as this part is touched by people who study JSA.

    Now it gets fitted for tsuka-maki and saya. The saya is carved and laquered and fitted with a kurigata and kojiri. The tsuka is carved, covered in same wrapped in tsuka-ito and given its fuchi kashira, and menuki. Finally its given its seppa and tsuba and the sageo is tied to the saya.

    Note aside from the lamination done to Japanese swords there is a diffrent type. In which several layers of diffrent steels are hammer forged ontop of each other. This gives similar results to forge folding only allows for more control of the design.

    Damascus is a village in spain where sword smiths were credited for having some of the best forge folding techniques in Europe.
    Joel Habbershaw

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