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Thread: Calling all daito collectors

  1. #76
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    I'm curious about the failure of the Japanese baldes you cite. I saw a video about a sword that Yoshindo made specifically for a kabuto wari (helmet splitting) test.

    Long story short, the helmet (I think it was a zunari kabuto, but I'm not sure) wound up with about a 2-3" gash in the side. The blade had penetrated perhaps about an inch or so. I don't know if you can call this a successful test (the helmet was still essentially intact, although I assume the wearer would have had one hell of headache).

    The blade, however, came out completely unscathed with the edge completely intact.
    Earl Hartman

  2. #77
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    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    And last- as can be expected- the Nihonto will fail miserably. They always do. They simply had no interest in quality control for performance that I can see. I have gone through about a dozen-including two by known smiths. In general they just don't seem all that good as far as swords go. Perhaps they did not expect anyone to actually use them.
    Dan, I don't doubt your metalurgical expertise, but I am always hesitant in the face of broad generalizations like your statement above.
    There are modern smiths shunned by the collector world specifically because they make "cutters" and not "art blades". There are historical blades that have survived centuries and perform magically. There are modern and ancient blades that couldn't be used to cut grass let alone be expected to perform in battle.
    And as you realize, there are historical/cultural/legal restrictions on what smiths in Japan can and cannot do. Of course there are better/newer methods for forging, but for reasons perhaps out of scope of this thread they do not/cannot. Some smiths do want to try new/different things, and like Hataya-sensei of Token Hataya for example, they end up setting up forges outside of Japan to produce less expensive, better cutters.
    But to say, in general, that nihonto always fail miserably, have no quality control, just aren't that good is I think a bit unfair.
    That being said I seriously doubt any Japanese smith could make a sword that could outcut, for example, a modern Howard Clark L6. But that doesn't mean all nihonto are generally no good.

    Regards,
    r e n

  3. #78
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Guys

    I am leaving it as stated in that I am refering to _my_ testing. The blades I have handled have not done well at all. In fact low end mass produced blades by the Chinese have done better.
    Of course there are generalities and I am quite certain that the Japanese smiths-lifted of these restraints- could make world class performance blades with serious artistic merit. I am sure of it -as the smithing skill is self evident. It is just a change in materials.
    It is interesting to read and hear that the smiths themselves share a sometimes low opinion of many past works regarding performance.

    cheers
    Dan

  4. #79
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    Ren:

    Dan and I have been down this road before. It would be crazy to believe that a skilled modern smith, armed with the latest science, materials, tools and techniques, couldn't make a blade superior to any that had come before. He'd be a pretty worthless smith if he couldn't.
    Earl Hartman

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    uhh Bugei does not sell the bushido that would be cas ibera. Throwing in a bugei shobu zukuri would make it interesting. Which D. Guertin katana? Who made the nihonto your using? What is the age ? How is the polish? How tired is it? How much did it cost? Why not test your stuff against other modern American smiths? Why are you abusing blades by trying to cut trees? Why not use yellow bamboo? Please post your results of this test on swordforum.com


    Howard Clark's stuff out classes most modern american smiths. Lets compare that lawnmower blade to HC's L-6 Lawnmower blade while your at it...Yes it exists ask him.

    Nihonto that were actually used were big and beefy. Once they needed it the blade was polished to resharpen, remove chips, and bring out the activity. Every time a sword is polished large amounts steel is removed. If its done too much the blade becomes tired and if its polished again it would hit the inner softer core. Japanes blades that are tired have given the rise of the myth that Japanese blades are made to be light and fast. Often these tired blades are sold at the cheaper level.
    Also blades made during waring times are often of lower quality as they had to mass produce these blades for warriors. These blades are of much lower quality than bugei and D. Guertin swords (some nihonto made today have similar standards). This is not to say there weren't top quality blades available during war times.
    Martial worthy nihonto rarely run under $6,000 and quality martial nihonto are $10,000 and up.
    Last edited by Joel H.; 19th October 2004 at 06:04.
    Joel Habbershaw

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    Wink

    "Perpetual stagnation........."

    You already said you were in Japan. No need to be redundant.
    Brett A. Charvat

  7. #82
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Just to be clear in the three references to Howards L6 and its sharpness and cutting attributes...
    Many smiths use L6 -including me- and have been doing so for decades on end. The properties that Howard brings out in L6 can be done by other smiths as well. What Howard does -which is singularly unique to my knowledge-is to produce bainite in the body of the blade while producing a hamon. This is no easy task; trust me.
    What this does is produce the best sharp edge that L6 is capable of -which is really not that special compared to other steels while producing bainite in the body. What is truly special is the bainite, which produces a superior tensile strength to the body to resist deflection and failure. Bainite will mimic properties of spring tempered martensite.
    Overall I would not use a word such as "sharp" to tout the superior qualities of L6. Touch, chip resistent, rust resistent- come to mind. Not that is _isn't_ great at holding an edge; it is. But it is not is stellar attribute. There are may steels that will equal or beat it in edge retention. Overal Howards METHOD in treating L6 is what is superior and those same attributes in a sword are damn near unbeatable.

    Sorry to be complicated. But it is a tricky topic. Others have done things a bit different with producing hamon in the edge while producing spring tempered martensite in the back to support the pearlite body and hard edge. This is the method I use. The swords are very dynamic and resiliant in a cut and will not take a set bend like Nihonto. They also exhibit a more desirable control over the hamon instead of the rather blah hamon of L6.


    Ren
    Kobuse; which is the majority of Nihonto blades-not all-makes inferior blades. There is no debate to be had. It just is. It was a way to produce blades faster-you didn't need to work as much fine steel-you used the low grade in the middle which stuck out the back. This can cause failure in deflection; whether breaking out right or taking a set bend. In fact many people have come to expect this horribly defecient workmanship flaw as a standard. It is typicaly discussed in sword cutting tests and reviews-even with well known sensei stating that swords will fail when hit on the back.
    See the "Blocking with Katana" thread in the archives above the sword forum.

    It is unfortunate that inferior workmanship lowered the bar when those same smiths in those same eras were capable of so much more with the materials and knowledge they had on hand. The other more time consuming methods are better-with properly folded kawagane being the best at the time. After that you hae failures is heat treat if the blade was not tempered back to support the edge.
    As for Nihonto..I am a fan of the look-not many of the methods. Example is I like Nie, but I would not cut with a sword exhibiting profuse Nie. Its too brittle.
    It is odd that there are references throughout Japanese history cataloging multiple sword failures in arsenals with the resultant call going out for partcular smiths work which survived testing. Apparently it was an old problem then as well as now.


    cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 19th October 2004 at 13:02.

  8. #83
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Ren:

    Dan and I have been down this road before. It would be crazy to believe that a skilled modern smith, armed with the latest science, materials, tools and techniques, couldn't make a blade superior to any that had come before. He'd be a pretty worthless smith if he couldn't.


    __________________
    Earl Hartman


    Earl...give this a whirl. It is play on your words. It more clearly addresses my point.

    And it would be "crazy to believe that a skilled (Japanese) smith, armed with the (old) science, materials, tools and techniques, (in any era) couldn't make a blade superior to (many) that had come before. He'd be a pretty worthless smith if he couldn't.


    Steel is steel. Its properties were expertly worked in a single era by smith A. and were superior to the works of smith B., C., etc in the same era. The Japanese recorded it.
    Meaning?
    All could have done better and benefitted by communicating and establishing standards of the best workman.

    In a torture test of use as a weapon of war I would not rank the Japanese sword very highly among other cultures works. Quite frankly I think many Japanese sword lovers would be very surprised at the performance qualities of many of the worlds weapons compared to the the oft touted and innacurate "best sword in the world" descriptions of the Japanese Katana."

    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 19th October 2004 at 14:00.

  9. #84
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    I finally read this entire thread well rested, not sick, and not spending less than 1 minute reading the posts(no joke).

    Dan I would have to agree the kobuse is quite a flawed design. I personally would have to say its more like a learning process between maru and other lamination processes. The kobuse is seen alot in the cheaper nihonto in which the shigane is very low quality steel. The most used style of lamination is honsanmai and more expensive. The three I have handled were about $15k. The two were very heavy on the niku and one was so tired the last polish couldn't be finished. I have been told that shigan wasn't always low quality filler; and was actually rated by the smith more so than any average rating system. So a smith who had a lot of high quality steel lying around may rate one bar as shigan but may be considered kawagane by a beginner smith.

    Not to mention the performance of nihonto can be made or broken by the togeshi. Hence why you don't take a muramasa(a smith who made some of the best cutters but were banned by the Tokugawa shogunate as they where deemed "evil")to any old sword polisher in America. Nor would Dan attempt to cut a tree with one.
    Joel Habbershaw

  10. #85
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Joel Writes

    Dan I would have to agree the kobuse is quite a flawed design. I personally would have to say its more like a learning process between maru and other lamination processes. The kobuse is seen allot in the cheaper nihonto in which the shigane is very low quality steel......
    >snip<

    ******************

    Joel
    You _personally_ would have to say it's a flawed design and more of learning process?
    Really? How's that? First off where is the logic in that secondly- What personal reference are you referring to?
    Personal experience forging?
    Personal review of a historical record?
    What?

    As for Kobuse in the cheaper swords? Really? News to me. I guess we would have to tell mukansa and National living treasure sword smiths that little gem. I watched a living national treasure forge a Kobuse sword with a crap steel insert. It’s on display at the museum of art in Boston. Other than to sell it for a profit to a collector who would "ooh and awe" over it -I would not own it. If I were given it I would test it to destruction compared to my own to prove a point that is already known by most working smiths, and it appears, many Japanese soldiers....oops sorry...er....warriors- in many past eras.
    Steel is steel and it has a peculiar tendency to act like steel even in the face of "beliefs" and imaginings by scholars, collectors and suburban white boys.


    I appreciate your willingness to enter into a dialogue. To that end- It is commendable that you decided to actually read the thread. That said -I still struggle to understand your views and where you are coming from. Did you read the question I asked you in a previous post?
    As for the overall topic at hand. My general opinion is that some people talk, cite others, engage in mutually supportive like minded revery and cite the opinion of scholars who have little or no knowledge other then to quote source information which was essentially flawed to begin with-all in an attempt to maintain their own views. Others (many of them smiths from differing countries) put their own money where their mouth is, have first hand knowledge through an intimate understanding of both materials and methods of the subject at hand.
    It is no small wonder that the outcome from the two sources is frequently at odds.

    Cheers
    Dan

  11. #86
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Originally posted by Cliff Schooling



    1. Kobuse
    I agree with regard to the core argument with regard to a poor quality steel, but I think if a good quality of slightly lower carbon steel is used, it might produce the a blade with the flexibility and strength claimed. A blade is always a compomise between toughness and hardness,
    >snip<


    2. Cold forging
    A few points on the forge work that I know and don't know and am keen to learn. One tecnique in the final stages of the forging and is very effective and I'm not sure if the Japanese sword smiths use it, is Austenitic forging, where the blade is hammered with carefully overlapping blows at the final stages of forging at a much lower temperature (about very, very dull red) compacting the edge grain. This improves the cutting edge considerably, but you need to be very careful.


    3. Wet work
    The other thing that intigues me is why the Japanese smith keeps his anvil and tools wet? I suspect that the small explosion you get when doing this, aids the compaction of the steel.

    4. Clean clothes
    The last thing is, how the hell do they keep their white gear so clean? A day at the forge and I'm black, with white streaks from the sweat. Mind you I've no assistants and no power hammer.
    Sorry to waffle on but I think that the exchange of ideas is great. Keep the info comming.

    ***************
    Cliff
    I took the liberty to number a few points to yak with you about.

    1. I disagree about jacketing any type of core steel. There really is no point other then to save on quality steel the smiths had to agonize over to refine and work. That's it and that's all. The rest is a myth and utter nonsense. Mores the point is that any reasonably experienced smith can prove it to be false-and have. That is why you hear accomplished smiths trying to correct this oft repeated falicy. To be clear it does NOT....make the sword more resiliant or any other such nonsense regardless of how many times some collector or supposed sword expert rants otherwise. God save us from these authors who keep repeating the info-mercials from the NBTHK.
    Here you have heard from two known Japanese smiths who do not want to make a big deal in Japan about their own research against Kobuse and other complex folding for the simple reason that it flies in the face of that same Statis-quo. This is what Earl was reffering to. Not good for businesss don't cha know!!

    One many levels the use of superior steel would win out over poorly forged low carbon in the body. If you were to refine the core steel to point where it is strong enough-why not just use better grade steel to begin with?
    Spring tempered martensite or bainite would be a more resiliant choice wouldn't it?
    Having a dead soft core is bad enough.
    Having a dead soft_ AND _ poorly forged body core is just plain bad. Whether 600 years ago or just last week.
    So, the next time you see the set-bends in a japanese Katana. Just remember that in any age and in any era- It did not need to be so. They could have done better.


    2. Cold forging
    Agreed but you can UNDO all that good work by incorrect thermal treatment in stress relief and heat treat. Grain refinement can be done and undone with tempereture. To date I still believe that cycles of normalizing should precede final hardening and and triple tempering. I do so BEFORE applying clay.

    3. Wet work
    Actually those little explosions are not for compaction. They are to simply blow off any scale from oxidation. It keeps the steel clean(er) with out all the grinding we do. It works by steam being created when the hot steel hits the water....WHAM!...scale is blown free. No big thing, and saves grinding. I haven't found that it works near as well as grinding.

    4. Clean clothes
    Charcoal is cleaner then coal
    They don't grind like we do.
    Try it.

    Hope this makes sense
    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 22nd October 2004 at 00:37.

  12. #87
    Finny Guest

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    2. Cold forging
    Agreed but you can UNDO all that good work by incorrect thermal treatment in stress relief and heat treat. Grain refinement can be done and undone with tempereture. To date I still believe that cycles of normalizing should precede final hardening and and triple tempering. I do so BEFORE applying clay.



    Mr. Harden, could you expand on what you mean by this a bit more?

    How many cycles of normalising do you do before hardening?

    Do you triple temper at low heat for extended time periods?

    Thank you for your time, this thread's been an interesting read.

  13. #88
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Brendan
    Its early and I am on the run for a fun day with the family-including two sword and armor exhibits....er...ok..fun for me and my son. I finally got him forging.
    I'll write tonight. Have good day.

    cheers
    Dan

  14. #89
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    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    Brendan
    Its early and I am on the run for a fun day with the family-including two sword and armor exhibits....er...ok..fun for me and my son. I finally got him forging.
    I'll write tonight. Have good day.

    cheers
    Dan
    S'pose you could drop me a line while yer at it?
    Cady Goldfield

  15. #90
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    HEY,
    How is everyone doing? Havnt seen or heard from anyone in a while. Hope to talk soon.
    Take Care.
    Andrew Prochnow

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