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Thread: Bodhidharma's route to China

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    Default Bodhidharma's route to China

    Hi all,

    I?fm looking for information about what route Budhidarma took to get from India to China. And if anyone knows about any explorations about what route Budhidarma took to China done in modern time that supports any of the older theories that exists?

    Cordially,

    Robert
    Robert Liljeblad
    Stockholm Norra Shibu
    Swedish Shorinjikempo Federation
    www.shorinji-kempo.se

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    Jim Perkins Guest

    Default silk road

    Robert the silk road was the main travel route at that time do some searchs on that and you will most like find what you are looking for here a good site to start with
    BUDDHISM AND ITS EXPANSION
    Hope this Helps! Jim

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    For a while now, many people have been hearing that martial arts had its roots in India. But where in India... what art would it have been? Some tried to link the grappling art of Vajramushti as Kung-Fu's predesessor even though it resembles Greek Pankration wrestling. Others with the Punjabi art of Gatka which is a sword fencing art. However, during the 1990s the Kerala art of Kalaripayattu has came out from the dark. Many people seeing this art with its martial arts type of kicks, punches, and weaponry have were convinced that this must be the art which Kung-Fu has originated from. There are a lot of web sites and articles stating that the art of Kalaripayattu was the martial arts introduced by an Indian prince turned monk by the name of Daruma Bodhidarma to China. As a matter of fact many have jumped to the conclusion that it was the mother all martial arts.

    Firstly, there is no connection whatsoever between Kalaripayattu and Kung-Fu. Kalaripayatttu was formed around the 13th century and Daruma Bodhidarma was alive around the 6th century who traveled to China. There is a 700 year gap between him and the formation of Kalaripayattu. Also, Daruma Bodhidarma was born in the ancient Pallava kingdom of Kanchipuram which is situated in the state of present day Tamil Nadu where Kalaripayattu is not a native art of the state. As a matter of fact Tamil Nadu itself has several martial arts which predate Kalaripayattu thousands of years and are even mentioned in the Tamil literature such as the Silappadikaram during the Sangam Age of the 1st century A.D. Another piece of Tamil literature which mentions of these martial arts is called the Purunaruru (Four Hundreds songs on War and Wisdom) written around 500 B.C.E.

    Another thing I would like to point out is that India was not in existence before the arrival of the British around the 1600s. It was the British who unified the states and other regions into India along with Burma and Pakistan. Before the British, the Indian sub-continent consisted of many countries and kingdoms. The latest parts of the sub-continent to be brought into the Indian Union were the 5 French territories of Pondicherry in 1956. Before that, it was Assam, Manipur, and the other Eastern states which came under the British rule and became part of their India during the late 1800s which can be found at Thang Ta: Martial Art of Manipur. At one time the states of Kerala, Tamil Nadu, and even parts of Sri Lanka were originally called Tamil Akkam. It was one Tamil administration with three major dynasties being the Pandyan, Cholas, and the Cheras. The Pallavas were also part of Tamil Akkam at one time. However, their empire was divided by Tamil Nadu and Andra Pradesh. The land where the Cheras ruled later came to be known as Kerala where they formed their own language out of Tamil called Malayalam.

    As a Matter of fact, Tamil Akkam had such a powerful army and navy in Southern India and Sri Lanka, that not even the Mauryan Empire of Asoka could over power it. It is amazing how Emperor Asoka was able to conquer from North India to Pakistan, Afghanistan and much of central India, but could not conquer Tamil Akkam! This was probably due to their martial expertise as well. Much information can be found along with a map of the Mauryan Empire of Asoka in K.A. Nilakanta Sastri's Age of the Nandas and Mauryas. Another good book to read on this would be Asoka and the Decline of the Mauryas by Romlia Thapar. Here is a link to the map of the extent of Asoka's Empire


    Going back to Kalaripayattu, it resembles a lot like Ninjitsu. This art may have been modified over the years to its present state. As for the Martial Arts of Tamil Nadu and Northern Sri Lanka, they are called Kuttu Varisai (empty hand combat), Varma Kalai (pressure point study), and an array of weapons arts. Kuttu Varisai resembles a mix of both Karate and Kung Fu having its own animal forms too. There is one stance in Kuttu Varisai which resembles the horse stance which is found in Kung Fu and Karate. However, it is called the Bear stance.

    There are many weapons arts and each weapon is a mastery of its own. One of the most famous one is called Silambam which is similar to the Bo staff fighting in Japan. There are a total of 96 Katas for this art. Another weapon is the Erathai or the double stick similar to the Filipino Kali or Sinawali. There are two unique weapons which are not found outside of Southern India which is the Surul Pattai (steel blade whip) and the Madhu (deer horns). Other weapons arts of the Tamil country are the Val Vitchi (single sword) and the Eretthai Val (double short sword).

    Between the 2nd to 12th century AD the Pallavas and the Cholas have done intensive sea trade with Southeast Asian kingdoms like that of Angkor (Cambodia), Sri Vijaya (Indonesia) and even as far as China. It is possible that the Pallavas may have had contact with Japan during their seafaring naval expeditions. A good source on that would be in the book titled Traditional Cultural Link between India and Japan (During the 8th and 9th centuries) written by Dr. Kalpakam Sankarnaryan and Dr. Motohiro Yoritomi. There is a possibility the inhabitants of the islands of Japan may have adopted certain forms of Kuttu Varisai and Silambam by the Pallavas. Silambam which might be precursors to Kendo, Ken-Jutso, and Karate.

    During the Chola Empires zenith between the 10th and 12th centuries they had conquered much of Southern India and Eastern parts going through Manipur, Assam, and Southern Burma. There empire stretched to as far south as Sri Lanka & Maldives, and to the East was Sumatra, Java, and Malaysia (Kadaram). Their martial arts must have been one of their exports along with various other arts like dance, architecture, and the Tamil version of the Ramayana. The Ramayana (or Ramayanan, Ramavataram) was re-written from Sanskrit to Tamil by the sage Kavicakravarti Kamban of the 9th century A.D. of the Chola kingdom of Tanjore, Tamil Nadu. There are certain moves which are in Muay Thai which are called the Hanuman or Lim Lom. Hanuman was a warrior in the Ramayana epic. Three sources on this can be found in Cholas by K.A. Nilakanta Sastri, Mystery of the Maldives by Thor Heyerdahl, and Muay Thai: The Most Distinguished Art of Fighting written by Panya Kraithat and Pitisuk Kraitus.

    As for the Shaolin, it may be possible that Daruma Bodhidarma did go there and introduced Dhyan [Zen (in Japanese), Chan (in Chinese)]. The absence of fighting forms in China before Daruma Bodhidarma is absolutely false. If there was no fighting form in China, then how did there armies fight which most definitely predates the arrival of Daruma Bodhidarma? There were fighting forms in China. It was Daruma Bodhidarma who introduced his concept of breathing exercises, the arts of the vital points and the 18 Lohan which can be seen in Kuttu Varisai of present day Tamil Nadu. His introduction of these Dravidian combat forms and exercises was adopted by the Chinese which later evolved into Kung - Fu. However, Bodhidarma was also not the only Sage who went to China.

    There was another Tamil sage who travelled to China well before him around the 5th century B.C. by the name of Boghar Siddha. He was accompanied by Lao Tse the founder of Taosim and who was the first Chinese to propound the theory of duality of matter -- the male Yang and female Yin -- which conforms to the Siddha concept of Shiva - Shakti or positive-negative forces. In Tamil, Yin and Yang translates to Idai Nadi (female, moon) and Pingelai Nadi (male, sun). The unification of the two becomes Lingam which is a symbol of Siva. The Sanskrit adaptation of the Yin and Yang is Shiv and Shakt (or Siva and Shakti). The Sanskrit translation of the unification of Shiv and Shakt is called Prana. Prana is "breath" and is understood as the vital, life-sustaining force of living beings and the vital energy in all natural processes of the universe.

    Acupuncture from Tamil Akkam was also introduced to parts of Asia. This was called Varma Cuttiram also known as Varma Kalai. Originally formed as a medicinal healing art, this can also be used to maim and even kill people. Arts in China which relate to the Varma arts are Tai Chi and Dim Mak.

    In Southeast Asia the arts of Krabi Krabong in Thailand and Silat in Indonesia bear a lot of resemblances of the Dravidian warfare arts of Southern India. The animalistic styles and even forms of animism found in Silat are also found in Kuttu Varisai where invokes a specific animal spirit or energy into ones body. Many Chola and Pallava Naval and Merchant ships landing in parts of Southeast Asia have not only brought with them the Hindu and Buddhist religions, but the martial arts as well which fused with the indigenous fighting styles of Southeast Asia. Source Tamil Merchant Guild in Sumatra written by K.A. Nilakanta Sastri.

    In the Bible in the book of Solomon and Esther it mentions about trade and contact with India. The term India was used in the King James Version which was translated from Hebrew and Greek during the 1600s and the rise of the British Empire. The King James came about after the British took control over many kingdoms and countries forming it into one British Administration and giving the name India. India is actually a Latin word for Indo or Indus in Greek which is Hindu in the Persian language of Farsi near Iran and Pakistan. In the Tamil texts it mentions about King Solomon’s trade and contact with the Chera, Pandya, and Chola kingdoms of Tamil Akkam. King Solomon was not the only one in contact with the Dravidian kingdoms but Rome, Greece, and Egypt. This information can be found in Foreign Notices of South India: from Megasthenes to Ma Huan written by K.A. Nilakanta Sastri. Other than spices, precious stones, silk, and exotic animals being exported to Rome, Greece and the Middle East, weapons and fighting styles were exported as well. The Romans and the Greeks who traveled to Tamil Akkam were known by the ancient Tamils as the Yavanas. Weapons like the trident amongst others were imported to Rome including certain fighting forms which were used in gladiatorial fights in Rome. More information can be found in Silambam fencing from India by Manuel J. Raj and The Commerce Between the Roman Empire and India by E.H. Warmington.

    There are even older fighting styles found on the African continent which may have found its way to the Indian sub-continent and from Australia. These are known as Dambe of Nigeria which one hand is bound for punching, and kicking and head butting are allowed. Similar arts to Dambe are Adi Thada of the Tamils, and Muay Thai of Thailand. The Ringa wrestling of Madagascar is similar to the Tamil wrestling called Malyutham. Amongst the many fighting styles and sports of Africa is the Savika bull fight which can also seen in the Tamil Nadu and parts of Northeastern Sri Lanka bull fights known as Jalli Kattu. Ancient Tamil texts mention of an ancient land mass connecting India with Australia and Madagascar. It also mentions names of cities and rivers which lie beneath the Indian Ocean today. The Indian sub-continent and Australia both lay on the same tectonic plate called the Indo-Australian plate. The tsunami of December 2004 also proved the Lemurian theory when it washed back a couple of miles exposing temples and artifacts in the Bay of Bengal near Mammalapuram, Tamil Nadu. That was the fourth tsunami recorded in the history of South Asia. The third was during the early 1900s. In the Tamil Silappadikaram it also mentions of a great flood or tsunami which wiped out an ancient Pandyan city. An interesting book which goes into detail is called The Lost Land of Lemuria: Fabulous Geographies by Sumathi Ramaswamy The resemblances between Tamils, Malayalees, Australian aborigines and East African are very close. There is an ancient weapon that was used in Tamil Akkam called the Valari which resembles the Boomerang of Australia. The Velari was shaped like the boomerang, but was tipped with a metal blade. Here is an article written by Dr. S. Jayabarathi Jaybee on the Valari Weapon

    In conclusion, martial arts of India today were actually the martial art of Tamil Akkam thousands of years back and not ancient India. India or the Indian Union did not come into play until after the arrival of the British around the 1600s. Kalari Payat is a very dynamic martial art with an array of weaponry including pressure point attacks and massage. However, it does not go any further back than the 13th century as quoted from Phillip Zarilli's When the Body Becomes All Eyes: Paradigms, Discourses and Practices of Power in Kalarippayattu, a South Indian Martial Art . Daruma Bodhidarma was also well alive almost 700 hundred years before the formation of Kalaripayattu. There were also many other sages and monks who have travelled from present day Southern India to China well before Daruma Bodhidarma.

    Here are some related links:

    Lost city found off Indian coast
    Tsunami throws up India relics
    Varma Kalai martial art of Tamil Nadu
    Silambam (staff fighting) of Tamil Nadu
    Kalairpayattu martial art of Kerala

    Johnny Raj
    Last edited by P Goldsbury; 21st July 2006 at 09:28. Reason: Name

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    Default What route?

    Hi Jingo!

    Interesting indeed!

    If I understand you right, you argue that there are other ways that martial arts may have traveled from India (or what it was called at that time) to China than with Budhidaruma! That might be true and I do not know about that.

    My interest is what way Budhidarma took from India to China. By boat? The silk route? Or any other way?

    Cordially,

    Robert
    Robert Liljeblad
    Stockholm Norra Shibu
    Swedish Shorinjikempo Federation
    www.shorinji-kempo.se

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Liljeblad
    Hi Jingo!

    Interesting indeed!

    If I understand you right, you argue that there are other ways that martial arts may have traveled from India (or what it was called at that time) to China than with Budhidaruma! That might be true and I do not know about that.

    My interest is what way Budhidarma took from India to China. By boat? The silk route? Or any other way?

    Cordially,

    Robert
    Hi Robert:

    Two resources might offer some help. First, "The Bodhidharma Anthology" by Jeffrey Broughton. This contains the earliest texts relating to Bodhidharma, including those found early in the 20th century at Tung Huang caves.

    Also the "Shaolin Grandmasters' Text" has some relevant material. They quote from Broughton, but they have additional material which might be more relevant to martial arts history.

    If you are going to be doing this research I have to gently point out that the correct spelling is "Bodhidharma". In Chinese: Ta Mo. In Japanese: Daruma.

    The standard story of Bodhidharma coming to China is that he arrived by boat, leaving from Southern India and arriving in China in Canton. The date is about 520. The Southern route was well established at that time and Buddhist missionaries were regularly going to Malaysia and Indonesia. So it is not unusual for a Buddhist monk to use this route.

    The Silk Route was the earlier route for the spreading of Buddhism and it is the original source for the introduction of Buddhism into China. It was a long and sometimes dangerous journey that went through what today is Pakistan, Afghanistan, turning east over Tibet, then entering China in the far northwest of that Country. Buddhist missionaries became established in China somewhere between 100 B.C. and 100 A.D., roughly.

    The southern route to India by boat was quicker and as soon as it opened up it was used a great deal. Still, the Silk Route remained a major means for the spread of Buddhism until the Moslem invasion cut it off.

    Good luck on your researches.

    Jim Wilson
    Dharmajim

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    According to Stan Henning, Bodhidharma arrived in Shaolin-ssu via the Paper Road.

    Specifically, look to the novelist Liu E, whose book, "The Travels of Tao T'san," was published in 1907. The novel was very popular, and so, over the next decade or so, this connection between Bodhidharma and Shaolin-ssu was further embellished and adopted. Here, the most important version is probably Guo Xifen's "Secrets of Shaolin Boxing Methods" (1919). The Nationalists used the latter book as a physical education text, and so lots and lots of schoolboys were taught its stories as Gospel.

    For more on this, see Henning's essays in "Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia" and "Martial Arts in the Modern World," his essay, "On Politically Correct Treatment of Myths in the Chinese Martial Arts," and Brian Kennedy's discussion in "Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth
    The Nationalists used the latter book as a physical education text, and so lots and lots of schoolboys were taught its stories as Gospel.
    Are you talking about Chinese Nationalists or Indian Nationalists?

    Johnny Raj

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    Guomintang -- e.g., the Nationalist Chinese of Chiang Kai-shek. See Andrew Morris's book, "Marrow of the Nation." It's available through most online booksellers.

    Indian Nationalists were more into Imperial Japanese stuff, to include judo. The reason was that the Japanese had embarrassed the Russians, and so were heroes to the South Asian nationalist leadership. As an example, in 1929, the Indian poet Rabindranath Tagore arranged for a Japanese named TAKAGAKI Shinzo to teach judo at Calcutta's Bengal University (modern Visvabharati University). Tagore's hope was that the judo instruction would spread Japanese-style nationalism through British India. However, few Indian college students were particularly interested in physical culture, and when they were, they generally preferred American barbells to Japanese judo. Consequently, more popular pioneers of muscular Indian nationalism included the tiger-trainer Shyamakanta Banerji, the strongmen Iyer and Krishna Dass Bysak, and the wrestlers Ambu Gobar and Pandit Biddo.

    Nonetheless, the Japanese remained popular with many Indian Nationalists, and during WWII, perhaps as many as 40,000 Indians joined the Indian National Army (e.g., served with the Japanese in Burma, against the British), and there continued to be Imperial Japanese influence in Indian, Burmese, and Indonesian postwar nationalism well into the 1970s. For more on this, see Joyce C. Lebra, "The Significance of the Japanese Military Model for Southeast Asia," Pacific Affairs, 48:2 (Summer 1975), 215-229, available via JSTOR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth
    Guomintang -- e.g., the Nationalist Chinese of Chiang Kai-shek. See Andrew Morris's book, "Marrow of the Nation." It's available through most online booksellers.

    Indian Nationalists were more into Imperial Japanese stuff, to include judo. The reason was that the Japanese had embarrassed the Russians, and so were heroes to the South Asian nationalist leadership. As an example, in 1929, the Indian poet Rabindranath Tagore arranged for a Japanese named TAKAGAKI Shinzo to teach judo at Calcutta's Bengal University (modern Visvabharati University). Tagore's hope was that the judo instruction would spread Japanese-style nationalism through British India. However, few Indian college students were particularly interested in physical culture, and when they were, they generally preferred American barbells to Japanese judo. Consequently, more popular pioneers of muscular Indian nationalism included the tiger-trainer Shyamakanta Banerji, the strongmen Iyer and Krishna Dass Bysak, and the wrestlers Ambu Gobar and Pandit Biddo.

    Nonetheless, the Japanese remained popular with many Indian Nationalists, and during WWII, perhaps as many as 40,000 Indians joined the Indian National Army (e.g., served with the Japanese in Burma, against the British), and there continued to be Imperial Japanese influence in Indian, Burmese, and Indonesian postwar nationalism well into the 1970s. For more on this, see Joyce C. Lebra, "The Significance of the Japanese Military Model for Southeast Asia," Pacific Affairs, 48:2 (Summer 1975), 215-229, available via JSTOR.
    I agree with you with the Indian nationalist movement. However, that was in Northern and Central India. The people you have mentioned such as Rabindranath Tagore, Shyamakanta Banerji, Krishna Dass Bysak, Ambu Gobar and Pandit Biddo all are from Norhern India or were Brahmins which were very staunch Indian nationalists for an all Hindu state otherwise known as Hindustan.

    In the Southern part of British India which was Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Andra Pradesh where Dravidian nationalism was strong between 1938 to 1944. This was a call for a separate independent state for the Tamils of Southern India as an alternative to the alleged exploitation of Tamils by Brahmins and Northern Indians. The best way to preserve the liberty of Tamils was to agitate for separation from the rest of India and the proposed All-India Federation. This was led by Periyar and C.N. Annadurai who later formed the DMK (Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam) of Tamil Nadu.

    It is in Tamil Nadu and Kerala where these martial arts such as Kalaripayattu, Kuttu Varisai, and Varmakali come from. Also, it is in Kanchipuram of the state of Tamil Nadu where Daruma Bodhidarma was born. So, Indian Nationalism was not popular in the Southern Dravidian states of "India" where Daruma Bodhidarma was from. As a matter of fact, India never existed before the arrival of the British around the 1600s. Various countries and kingdoms were in existence of South Asia.

    As a matter of fact the Dravidian martial arts of Kerala was not heard of until the mid 1990s. Now during the 2000s, the arts of Tamil Nadu are beginning to be known. Also, these arts do not represent the whole of India since they hail from the Southern Dravidian states. The few martial arts that exist in India pretty much represent its own state, unless it is modified and twisted to suite the average Indian Nationalist which are primarily in Northern India and amongst the Brahmin castes in all of India. It is pretty much the North Indian fighting techniques of Vajramusthi (wrestling from Gujurat) and Gatka (Sikh sword fighting from Punjab) which are talked about quite a bit in regards as the Indian martial arts.

    The Indian government has not spent a single cent or paisa to promote the martial arts of Southern India which resemble very closely the martial arts of China, Japan, and Southeast Asia. These arts are not even taught in the Indian Army.

    You are right about the Indian Nationalists (of Northern and Central India) being more into Japanese martial arts such as Judo for political reason. Since Kalaripayattu is beginning to grow in popularity around the world. These nationalists are trying to adopt this art and claim it as theirs. As a matter of fact, they try to contribute to the generic "mix and match" culture of India. Saying that Daruma Bodhidarma introduced Kalairpayattu to China. Reality check: Daruma Bodhidarma travelled to China around the 6th century A.D. and Kalaripayattu came about around the 13th century... Also, New Delhi tries to sideline Tamil Nadu as much as possible since we wanted our state back from the British and not be part of the British invented Indian Union and our stand against North Indian and Brahmin Apartheid where the Indo-Aryans of Northern India are superior to the Dravidians (Tamils) who are considered inferior to them.

    Also, after independence from the British, the Hindustani government became a strong ally of the former U.S.S.R., while Pakistan was an ally with the U.S. during the cold war...

    Apart from the politics, there did exist a Daruma Bodhidarma who introduced the Buddhist concept of Dhyan (Chan in China, Zen in Japan). Most of his work was in his religion. As for the martial arts part of it, he did introduce certain fighting methods of ancient Tamilakkam (present day Southern India).

    There were times when there were Pallavas, Cheras and other Dravidian kings who were Buddhists. One ancient Buddhist Tamil literature written during the Sangam age was called Manimekallai about a Buddhist nun who was the daughter of Kalyani of the prior sequal Silappadikaram . I will leave the Silappadikaram epic for another time.

    Regards,

    Johnny Raj

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth & via JSTOR

    About 630:

    Narasimhavarman I Mamallan, the Tamil king of southern India’s Pallava Dynasty, commissions dozens of granite sculptures showing unarmed fighters disarming armed opponents. These sculptures might have been state propaganda. After all, Narasimhavarman and his sons were constantly fighting with their neighbors. Or they may have had religious symbolism, as the modern Indians have some violent dances honoring the goddess Kali that use similar movements. Or they might have shown an early form of varma adi, a southern Indian wrestling art since subsumed by kalarippayattu, that allowed kicking, kneeing, and punching to the head and chest, but prohibited blows below the waist. (The Agni Purana of the eighth or ninth century describes such an art, and Mamallan means "Great Wrestler.") Or they could have been all of the above or none: The Indians used their sculptures to tell stories, and it is presently impossible to tell whether those stories were true or fanciful.

    Second century:

    Indian Buddhists are encouraged to "avoid all contact with evil or cruel persons who brutally practice... the arts of boxing, wrestling, and nata." Nata is, literally, "dancing." However, in some of the more violent dances, the dancers go through choreographed battles against invisible demons. Shifu Nagaboshi (Terence Dukes) has suggested that nata, known as tandava, inspired the exercises that the Indian monk Bodhidharma taught the Chinese Shaolin monks. But the exercises Bodhidharma taught are conjectural, nata are associated with the Lord Vishnu rather than the Lord Buddha, and the Romans and Greeks shadow-boxed, too. ("So fight I," said Saint Paul in I Corinthians 9:26, "not as one that beateth the air." Unarmed versions of these Hellenistic shadow-boxing exercises were known as skiamachiae, or "private contests," while armed versions were known as hoplomachiae, or "armed contests.") So, while coincidence has been established, causality has not.
    I enjoyed reading the chronology of world historical martial arts. It is pretty intense. However, I would like to point out a couple of mistakes. Under the section of 630 A.D. it mentions about Varma Adi being a form of wrestling in Southern India and being a part of Kalari Payat. First, it is Marma Adi which is a Malayalam word for the Tamil word Varma. Secondly, Marama Adi is a pressure point attack and healing art. As for a wrestling form in Southern India, I believe you are referring to Malyutham which was the wrestling form practiced by the Pallavas. Also, the Pallavas ruled in Northern Tami Nadu and Southern Andra Pradesh. Regarding Kalari Payat, that art is from Kerala which was ruled by the Cheras.

    Under the section of Second Century A.D. it quotes "But the exercises Bodhidharma taught are conjectural, nata are associated with the Lord Vishnu rather than the Lord Buddha". In Hinduism, Vishnu is an incarnation of the Buddha and the Buddha is one of the ten avatars of Vishnu. Other avatars of Vishnu were Rama, Agastyar, and Krishna.

    Lastly, missing in the historical Chronological archives was the Khmer Empire of Cambodia, Sri Vijaya and Majapahit Empires of Indonesia, and the Naval expansions of the Cholas during the 10th century A.D. to southern Burma, Malaysia (Kadaram), Java, and SumatraNot to mention the merhcant and and naval expansion of the other Tamil kingdoms since the 2nd century A.D. like Prince Kaundiniya who set up a kingdom in Funan which later became to be known as Angkor. The Kmher kings or rajas started to adopt the word Varman at the end of their names similar to the Tamil Pallava kings. Some of ancient and medeival Angkor in Cambodia were Jayavarma Suryavaman, and Rudravarman. Also the Hindu Cham Empire of Southern Vietnam also ruled by a king from Tamilakkam (Southern India) known as Bhadraswaran.

    Anways, I really enjoyed that web site. Regards.

    Johnny Raj

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    Check your PM.

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    Default Yoga etc?

    Johnny,

    Great posts. Question for you-- how much of a connection have you seen between hatha yoga and the Indian martial arts?
    Tim Fong

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    Default Japan and India during WWII

    Mr. Svinth,
    I did not know that Tagore invited Japanese Judo masters to India. This is quite interesting.
    Here's a link about the Indian leader who led the Indian contingent that fought alongside the Japanese in WW II. You might find it interesting.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subash_...cond_World_War

    I also did not know that Imperial Japanese thought influenced Indian postwar nationalism through to the seventies. I guess I should look to the book for the details. I always believed that after Subash Chandra Bose died (or disappeared), and the INA beaten, they lost political influence.

    I apologize for the thread drift :-)

    As far as hatha yoga and indian martial arts..

    The last time I was home, I had the opportunity to train with a kalari teacher. He also teaches hatha yoga. The impression I got from him was that hatha yoga was considered a way of training and conditioning your body and mind as preparation for doing martial arts. The way I understand it, it is not considered two separate things (conditioning and martial arts), but is seen as a complimentary parts of the same thing. Much the same way we do pushups in our martial arts class even though it has no martial/self-defence value.

    thanks

    Raj Subrahmanian

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