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Thread: How much do you really want Heijoshin?

  1. #16
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
    Mind you, that "Of course, once you speak Japanese, you'll be entitled to have an opinion... " is guaranteed to annoy people.
    Why? Is it not right that those of us who aren't doctors shouldn't have medical opinions? Or those who aren't lawyers shouldn't have legal opinions? Remember: You are not entitled to your opinion; you are entitled to an informed opinion. Just because we live in an age of unwarranted egalitarianism doesn't mean we should embrace such a patently ridiculous meme. Next you'll be telling Mizuno Sensei that you know as much about Shorinji Kempo as he does...

  2. #17
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    Default Let's avoid pointless thread drift...

    But what about heijoshin?
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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    Red face Quite

    David Dunn writes:
    But what about heijoshin?

    Quite, this seemed to be an interesting discussion on psycopathy until it got hijacked by the gi, dogi debate.
    WHO CARES

    Apparently it has been identified that some individuals have a better capacity for dealing with stress and require higher levels of stimulation in order to produce the classic stress response (flight, fright or fight). I suppose these types of people are what you would class as thrill seekers.
    So would people who jump out of aeroplanes be naturals at heijoshin? or just certifiable?
    Regards Tracey
    Tracey Fuller
    Bournemouth, Shorinji Kempo

  4. #19
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    Default my take on this..

    As I understand heijo shin, something like it would be the objective of all Buddhist practice - i.e. it isn't necessarily a martial concept, and even for us the primary application needn't be in a self defence situation. As those who know me will tell you, despite thirteen years assiduous practice of Shorinji Kempo, I am far from being an example of the finished product as far as this kind of mentality is concerned. BTW, in claiming to be assiduous I'm not claiming to be any good, but I do try hard, and have only taken time off due to injury in that period.

    I started out having a vicious temper when roused, and I'm afraid it's still there. I've had to come to terms with the fact that it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. In a sense, this could be construed as meaning that my training has failed. What I do think my training has given me is a greater capacity to control my temper. This is a long way from having a genuinely 'unaffected state of mind', but it is surely an improvement, and a good thing in itself. Mizuno Sensei once went round a class I was in what we'd got out of training - when he got to me, I said "Control" "Of your temper?" "Hai, Sensei" "Mm. Me too". I found this reassuring. I don't think our discipline is intended to produce perfected saints; it's a bit more pragmatic than that.

    Similarly for any other emotional response which might be provoked by a stress situation. Fear is to some extent an adaptive response - it obviously exists for good evolutionary reasons , and being devoid of it is the territory of psychopathology. I think again if we look at fear in these terms humans like the rest of the animal kingdom have a repertoire of responses to situations which evoke fear. These include the possibility of involuntarily 'playing possum' i.e. going into a kind of hysterical paralysis which precludes doing anything very useful about your situation. This would of course be an extreme response, but I think the 'rabbit in headlights' condition is found in humans too. Our training won't prevent you having the same organic responses to stress as anybody else, though it might moderate them; what it will hopefully enable you to do is stay in control of them.

    I've found in that in some situations a kind of hyperalert state seems to take over. I once found myself surrounded by a group of Glasgow neds (transl. young males, typically up to no good). Because they were around me on all sides, they obviously would have the ability to overpower me, running probably wouldn't do much good. I didn't actually feel fear at the time. I just felt a sort of glacial calm indifference descend on me - at that moment I was fully reconciled to the fact that if they decided to jump me, I was toast, but that one of them would be maimed or dead as a result (I am well aware that 'thou shalt not kill' just went flying out the window), and just waited for whatever was going to happen to happen. They left me alone. Now, I'm not claiming that this was because of anything I did, but I suspect that in situations like these not evincing fear is likely to be disconcerting to potential attackers - if (big if) they're rational enough to be making calaculations about who they attack. On another day, they might well have jumped me anyway. Determining that was beyond my power - what I could do something about was how I responded to it.


    Tony Leith

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    Unhappy Opinions

    Originally posted by Kimpatsu Why? Is it not right that those of us who aren't doctors shouldn't have medical opinions? Or those who aren't lawyers shouldn't have legal opinions? Remember: You are not entitled to your opinion; you are entitled to an informed opinion. Just because we live in an age of unwarranted egalitarianism doesn't mean we should embrace such a patently ridiculous meme. Next you'll be telling Mizuno Sensei that you know as much about Shorinji Kempo as he does...
    I am sure that I speak for the vast majority when I say that I personally welcome Tony back to this forum.
    I genuinely believe that he adds much to debate and can provide a positive addition to our bank of informed contributors.

    I am also sure that I speak for a similar vast majority when I say that everyone has a right to an opinion, which can be tempered and educated by reasonable moderated discussion.

    That is not a path that has been chosen here.

    What I would say is that this was a discussion about whether heijoshin is a realistic ideal.

    But it has been hijacked.

    Doctors used to believe that trepanning was a cure for possession by bad spirits, lawyers used to advocate trial by ordeal.
    But obviously dissent, by its very nature cannot be correct according to the doctrine extolled here.

    As for Tony's final postulation I would suggest that as one of Sensei Mizuno's students that Dave Dunn's translation of hara is probably Sensei Mizuno's.

    But perhaps Tony can educate Sensei Mizuno that he's wrong and should speak Japanese better than him before he's worthy to have an opinion, an option which apparently will never be attainable to the rest of us, rather like heijoshin, which was the point of all this, after all.

    Tony, I have publicly defended you on many forums and in many discussions, why it that I am constantly disappointed with you?

    If Tony cannot contain himself to reasonable debate somewhere near to the stated thread, rather than setting himself into a totally indefensible position, then I would conclude that he must be excluded from this forum.

    Ade
    A man with small testes should never get involved in a fight requiring cojones

  6. #21
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    Tony Leith writes:
    They left me alone. Now, I'm not claiming that this was because of anything I did, but I suspect that in situations like these not evincing fear is likely to be disconcerting to potential attackers - if (big if) they're rational enough to be making calaculations about who they attack. On another day, they might well have jumped me anyway. Determining that was beyond my power - what I could do something about was how I responded to it.

    In a book I have on t'ai chi chi kung, the author talks about heart beat listening in times of danger, this involves listening to the spaces between the beats (apparently) But maybe it's the same sort of thing that your talking about Tony, a sort of inner awareness, hyperalertness or glacial calmness as you call it.
    Other stuff I've read on Taoism talks about shielding oneself with an invisible protective cloak. (Star Trek anyone)
    Tracey Fuller
    Bournemouth, Shorinji Kempo

  7. #22
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Re: Quite

    Originally posted by tracey fuller
    WHO CARES
    I care.

  8. #23
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    Default

    "Glacial calmness"... ooh, I like that one.

    I was discussing with a Neurologist a few years back, about my rather annoying habit of falling asleep at times of stress. I find that situations where other people get agitated, fretful or fidgety, can oft times make me slow right down and occasionally start doing the slow blink. I remembered back to occasions during exam preparation back when I was at school, settling down to revise ony to fall asleep before opening the book. I would fall asleep in the middle of a heavy conversation with Yoriko (my wife)... and still do, if she's not holding the rolling pin!

    Not Heijoshin exactly, as it has few useful qualities. But it does seem to be at the other end of the scale from the wild-eyed panic, and may be a close relative to the calm "everyday" mind of Heijoshin. I wondered if the body has a chemical that is used to supress an over-secretion of adrenalin, and whether in my case I was over compensating, leading to lack of adrenalin and associated reflexes. The Consultant Neurologist listened intently to my theory, said "mmm", ordered some tests and then a few weeks later told me "there's nothing wrong with you... perhaps you should see a psychanalyst". She said it with such a calm face, she could have been a Zen Master.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Quite

    Originally posted by tracey fuller
    ...Apparently it has been identified that some individuals have a better capacity for dealing with stress and require higher levels of stimulation in order to produce the classic stress response (flight, fright or fight). I suppose these types of people are what you would class as thrill seekers.
    So would people who jump out of aeroplanes be naturals at heijoshin? or just certifiable?...
    To put it quite simply no.

    There has been considerable work done in this area and the current line is that those who participate in extremely dangerous sports fall into 2 distinct categories;

    Those who like to be totally out of control and enjoy the adrenalin release and thrill that the immediate proimity of certain death gives them. Base jumpers fall into this category and studies have shown that just before they actually jump that their hearts are elevated to very near maximum, (about 220bpm.)

    Those who wish to totally control their situation by calm rational assessment and deliberated action in which a mistake or panic will cost them their lives. Free divers fall into this category, At the bottom of a descent heart rate has been reduced to an unparalleled 8 beats per minute, though more commonly it drops to 20 to 30 beats per minute while diving. (The average human rate is about 65 beats per minute.) At rest they can hold their breath for nearly eight minutes.

    The subjects of calm in action or no action in the midst of attack are other complex subject areas both of which I have seen work on one occasion and go horribly wrong on another.

    Got to go, kids need breakfast and Berlin University are on their way!

    Ade
    A man with small testes should never get involved in a fight requiring cojones

  10. #25
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    Default

    I think the base jumpers would come into the category of individuals who have a higher capacity for stress, ie they have to to do life threatening things in order to accelerate their heart rate. Whereas others might increase their heart rate by standing on a chair or seeing a spider in the bath (I'd go with the chair thing but not the spider)
    You see this in children, my friend's son is completely fearless, he dives into anything and everything regardless of risk. Conversely my son stands and weighs things up before commiting and clearly has a strong sense of self preservation.
    Regards Tracey
    Tracey Fuller
    Bournemouth, Shorinji Kempo

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    Does an elevated heart rate preclude you from attaining this state? I have noticed when ridding motorcycles fast that my heart rate can be high, but in spite of this, and even when something dangerous and unexpected occurs, my actions and thought processes are calm. It?fs probably the only reason why I?fm still alive after 27 years of ridding them.

    As Ade said earlier, our fear responses provide some positive effects. Can we learn to use these while still remaining controlled and of calm appearance? If so is this Heijoshin.

    As a side note I?fm not claiming that I possess it as I suffer terribly with nervousness at times of grading or embu.
    Cheers
    Colin Linz

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    Default further to my last post..

    Just occured to me that my last post could have been construed as trying to come across as an ice cool fighting machine. Far from it. That was just an interesting example of an instance where something like a state of heijo shin as described in the textbook descended on me almost involuntarily under stress. I would not be utterly confident that given the same or similar circumstances I would react in the same way. Unfortunately, I don't think our reactions to stress are necessarily that consistent. Training will probably help by essentially artificially simulating situations which induce similar physiological responses,which hopefully will make the 'real thing' easier to deal with, but there are no guarantees.

    I've always been struck by the modesty of combat veterans when they're interviewed e.g during the D-Day 60th anniversary commemorations. They usually deny that they were doing anything which could be called heroic - "Me, no I was just doing my job running towards that heavy machine gun through shell fire". Partially this is because as they usually go on to point out they were in fact scared out of their minds (though of course I think this makes them more rather than less heroic), but also through an awareness that on another day they might have behaved differently.

    One episode of the TV series 'Band of Brothers' - about a company of American paratroops in WWII - dealt with a soldier who found that despite intensive training actually being shot at was something his nervous system couldn't cope with. I don't find it surprising that somebody would be cowering in a ditch while under heavy fire - I actually find it more surprising that not everybody does.

    The point I'm trying to make here is that I think heijo shin under situations of combat stress is not necessarily about meeting your fate with the impeturbability of a samurai warrior, but about being able to deal with and manage whatever your emotional responses might be.

    As a friend used to shout exasperatedly at me 'You're not a bloody Vulcan, Tony". My preferred response of course was a quizically upraised eyebrow.

    Tony Leith

  13. #28
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Re: further to my last post..

    Originally posted by tony leith
    As a friend used to shout exasperatedly at me 'You're not a bloody Vulcan, Tony". My preferred response of course was a quizically upraised eyebrow.
    Sticking your ears in a pencil sharpener whilst young didn't help either, Tony. But ou raise an interesting, if geeky, point; natural selection would favour the Vulcans very much, because with no emotions, they would have no fear, and hence no fight-or-flight response; in other words, they wouldn't know when the sensible course of action was to run away.

  14. #29
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    Default I should be ashamed to debate this..

    I can't belive I'm actually going to make this point in a public forum, but the point about the Vulcans is that they are not naturally emotionless. Vulcan culture is supposed to have been a reaction to the violently emotional nature of their antecedents - the whole Zen stoic thing is a discipline rather than simply a narural trait. I suppose over millenia it might be possible to selectively breed for desired characteristics (works for dogs), though that's going to take a while for a species that can only reproduce once every seven years...

    Having come out of the closet as a science fiction fan, I'll just slink back in and get my anorak...

    Tony Leith

    PS Kimpatsu, you may well be more knowledgeable about Japanese language and culture than anybody else posting here, but I'd advise you not to debate Star Trek with me
    PPS Apart from anything else, do we want to look like we care that much?

  15. #30
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Re: I should be ashamed to debate this..

    Originally posted by tony leith
    Kimpatsu, you may well be more knowledgeable about Japanese language and culture than anybody else posting here, but I'd advise you not to debate Star Trek with me
    You're on, Tony. My geekiness knows no bounds.
    BTW, have you checked out Hidden Frontier? The majority are drama students, so the acting's quite good.
    Now, back to Heijoshin: Although an ideal, it's very hard to achieve. Any tips on succeeding from the branch masters?

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