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Thread: motobu ha shito ryu kata

  1. #1
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    Default motobu ha shito ryu kata

    I have a question that maybe some of you can help me with. I am a student of Motobu ha Shito ryu. Over the past few years I have been looking at some of the larger Motobu ha Groups Including the Seishinkai , Kunibakai , and chikibukai. My question is how Shotokan kata such as Empi , Hangetsu , Nijushiho , Unsu , and other's have made there way into the kata syllabus ?

    I have enquired via email to several of the groups and have yet to recieve a reply. I know that Soke Kuniba Shogo studied under several Okinawan masters but I have never read anything about him studing Shotokan. With the vast amount of Shito ryu kata I do not see the need to add additional kata to the list especially with doing the modified shotokan versions of Okinawan kata.

    Just trying to find out why?
    Ron Davis
    Motobu ha Shito ryu Karate-do

    Karate is not a sport, it is a way of life!

  2. #2
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Demura seems to have been the biggest offender in this area by having his students do both JKA and Shito ryu kata. Remember, Mabuni moved to Osaka in 1927 and Shito-ryu literally exploded there because of his popularity. After his death, Osaka remained a Shito-ryu haven and I'm sure the inevitable eclecticism happened on occasion. Shito-ryu is not really a Japanese ryu at all, but its popularity in Japan makes everyone think it is. I never saw Kuniba teach JKA kata, but I was never a direct student of his. Anyway, all you Shito-ryu out there...STOP doing those JKA linear, cleaned-up kata

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    I agree Shihan , I just wish these Shihan that are in charge of these groups would give me a straight and honest answer . Being from the Motobu linage I am sure they would not have added Shotokan kata. I also know there were many shotokan people that were joining the Seishinkai aswell as the NKJU. I am sure some of tese kata came from them.
    Ron Davis
    Motobu ha Shito ryu Karate-do

    Karate is not a sport, it is a way of life!

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    Default Motobu Ha Shito Ryu on the net

    Are there any reliable sources on the net that show Motobu Ha Shito Ryu either with photos or videos?

    Thanks,
    Tim Black

  5. #5
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    not really the only sites I have found jsut show a kata list.
    www.seishinkai.com
    http://www.kunibakai.com
    www.chikubukai.gengo.net
    the last one even has some kata listed wrong as far as where they come from.
    Ron Davis
    Motobu ha Shito ryu Karate-do

    Karate is not a sport, it is a way of life!

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    Interesting History page on the KunibaKai site. I always wondered how Shito Ryu had a Motubu-ha I never heard of Motobu studying under Mabuni.

    If Motobu Choki was Shodai Soke of MotobuHa Shito Ryu, what kata in the syllabus actually came from Motobu? Does the MotobuHa tradition teach that Motobu practiced more than Naihanchi and Passai? Or did Nidai Soke Kosei Kokuba not do any Shito Ryu and all the syllabus come from Sandai Soke studies under Mabuni? I wonder how your Naihanchi compares with other Shito Ryu Naihanchi.

    Thanks.
    Ed Boyd

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    from what I have seen we get alot of bunkai from the motobu line. our kata is close to the Shito ryu sys. I have seen Motobu Choki's som do the Nihanchi and they are alittle different. From other things I ahve read I belive in his latter days Motobu Choki did other kata beside Nihanchi including Passai and Kushanku I belive he had a liking toward the Tomori style of kata.

    I jsut dont get how these Shotokan kata found there way into this style. Now dont get me wrong I am not saying that there is anything wrong with these kata Empi is a very elagant kata when done corectly.
    Ron Davis
    Motobu ha Shito ryu Karate-do

    Karate is not a sport, it is a way of life!

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    Default Thanks

    Thanks for the reply. I get the feeling that in a lot of Shito Ryu there is this mindset that RyuHa should be like a library or karate knowledge repository. I think this original mindset may have come directly from Mabuni himself. Historical accounts make it appear to me that he may have seen himself as a preservationist, trying to save as many forms as possible so they would not get lost. I've asked people before how in the world they study 45 kata. I good ones tell me they don't. They tell me that the just because the library has a lot of books you do not need to read them all. Just the ones that you want, like It Takes a Villiage. I think the modern situation just may have become a more is better kind of thing. I have no room to talk. At one time during the BC years (before children) I practiced all the Goju forms, all the Seito Matsumura forms, around 40 kobudo forms and I did a little gung fu and taiji on the side. I had no time left for martial arts or anything else like dates with women. Didn't really mean to do this. I just worked out at 2 different dojo at the same time and I manged to remember things. There came a point I needed to make a decision. The Seito honked up my Goju and vis a versa. The feet are different ,the chamber is different, techniques are similar but different enough to mess me up on an automatic pilot mode. It always impressed me how old school Shito Ryu guys were able to bring together Shuri and Naha. Me, I can't I'm too chicken to change certain principle mechanics to make the 2 compatible. But the Seito bunkai is in my Goju through Oyo. There is a lot of Shorin techniqes in my Kururunfa and Seisan. Thanks again.
    Ed Boyd

  9. #9
    Gene Williams Guest

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    If you count all the orthodox Shuri, Tomari, and Naha kata there are only 38. If you add Fukyugata or Gakki Sai, that's 40. I do not count variations on the original kata as separate kata. I place JKA kata in their own class, but do not count them as separate unique kata; they are still the Okinawan kata done with Shotokan philosophy. Now, Mabuni's primary teachers were Itosu and Higaonna, and those are the kata he originally combined. Kosei Kuniba, Shogo's daddy, studied under several people, among them Mabuni and Motobu. Shogo studied under Mabuni, Kosei Kuniba, Sakagami, Nagamine, Taira, and others. He probably trained under Motobu some, as well. Mabuni did develop several of his own kata (Shinsei, Juroku, Shiho Kosokun among them), but I don't count them as primary Okinawan kata. On Okinawa, Shiroma and Uechi (Kanyei) taught Shito-ryu with even fewer kata than Mabuni taught. I believe the innovators and eclectics were Kotaka, Tani, and others (including Demura later) who created their own kata or decided to include every kata they could find. One of the greatest offenders in this country was the old NKJU under Baillargeon who claimed at one time to teach over 80 kata! Listen...and I am speaking as Sensei...forget trying to learn large numbers of kata. If you ever master the 25 or 26 original Shuri, Naha, and Tomari kata you will be a better man than I am. Most seniors and most of the old Okinawan and Japanese sensei I have known or talked to are looking for ways to reduce the number of kata and techniques they practice and teach. There is beauty in simplicity; less is often more.

  10. #10
    Bahala Na Guest

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    No doubt Sensei's Ed and Gene. Great posts!

  11. #11
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    Question video katas???

    hello:

    I'm from panama city, i need videos from your style, can you help me???? (goyu ryu, shito ryu, wado ryu )please sign me

    Rogelio A. Ortega R.
    Panama Rep. de Panama
    sensei_buddha@hotmail.com
    "no existe obstáculo invencible, solamente existen hombres incapaces"

  12. #12
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    Why do you need video of kata? The reason I ask is if it for WKF tournament type stuff then there are specific versions you will want to see. For instance I do a little Goju Ryu but I don't do Shitei which is what you may want to see. I used to do Shitei Seipai and Saifa back when WUKO still existed but I'm sure they changed.

    http://www.kamikaze.com/securestore/...p173833.2.html
    http://www.kamikaze.com/securestore/...p173834.2.html
    http://www.kamikaze.com/securestore/...6256976.2.html
    http://www.kamikaze.com/securestore/...6256978.2.html
    Last edited by CEB; 3rd August 2004 at 18:19.
    Ed Boyd

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by CEB
    Why do you need video of kata? The reason I ask is if it for WKF tournament type stuff then there are specific versions you will want to see. For instance I do a little Goju Ryu but I don't do Shitei which is what you may want to see. I used to do Shitei Seipai and Saifa back when WUKO still existed but I'm sure they changed.

    Hi Ed, Hi guys! Glad to see E-budo back!

    Ed, the shitei kata did change. You can see a vid of Seipai on the USANKF website. www.usankf.org

    Rob

  14. #14
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    Default Re: motobu ha shito ryu kata

    I'm not aware of these kata being part of the Shito Ryu syllabus.
    Masatoshi Nakayama, in an interview with Randall Hasssel, said that he was sent to Mabuni by Funakoshi to learn Niseishi and Gojushiho. These kata were then modified by Nakayama, et al, to fit the Shotokan ideology.

    I'm aware that some shito factions and individuals practice some shotokan kata, as some groups have added Ryuei Ryu kata. However, they're not part of the "mainstream Shito" kata syllabus.

    Rob

    Originally posted by shisochin#1
    My question is how Shotokan kata such as Empi , Hangetsu , Nijushiho , Unsu , and other's have made there way into the kata syllabus ?

    I have enquired via email to several of the groups and have yet to recieve a reply. I know that Soke Kuniba Shogo studied under several Okinawan masters but I have never read anything about him studing Shotokan. With the vast amount of Shito ryu kata I do not see the need to add additional kata to the list especially with doing the modified shotokan versions of Okinawan kata.

    Just trying to find out why?

  15. #15
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    Default Motobu Ha Shitoryu

    There is that problem - always there. . . . . . . . . . .

    Motobu taught Kuniba, Kosei
    Motobu Shodai Soke Motobu ha Karate
    Kuniba, Kosei Nidai Soke Motobu Ha Karate

    Kuniba, Kosei and Mabuni taught Kuniba, Kosho

    Kuniba, Shogo(Kosho) liked Mabuni teaching and paying respect to his father made Motobu Ha Shito ryu SeishinKai it was Seishinkan prior to this.

    So Kuniba, Shogo is
    Sandai Soke Motobu Ha Karate do and
    Shodai Soke Motobu Ha Shitoryu karate.

    My information came directly from Kuniba, Shogo.

    thanks
    Lenny Jordan

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