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Thread: Differences between certain throws

  1. #1
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    Default Differences between certain throws

    I have been doing a style of jujitsu for 3+ years whose nage is essentially that of judo, have watched countless video clips online, and now own three classic books on judo (Mifune's, Kano's, and Inokuma's), all of which I have studied religiously, but cannot figure out the exact differences between some throws. They are:

    O GURUMA vs HARAI GOSHI
    These look exactly the same to me. For the life of me, I can't figure out the difference.

    UKI GOSHI vs O GOSHI
    Apparently you don't load the uke quite so much on your back for uki goshi as you do with o goshi, making uki goshi much quicker than o goshi. Is this correct?

    HIZA GURUMA vs SASAE TSURIKOMI ASHI
    Is the only difference between these that the sweep takes place at the knee for the former and at the ankle for the latter?

    ASHI GURUMA vs TAI OTOSHI vs YAMA ARASHI
    The latter two especially look exactly the same to me .....

    HIKIKOMI GAESHI vs SUMI GAESHI
    Same foot placement between the legs, so what is different?

    SEOI OTOSHI vs (IPPON) SEOI NAGE
    The only thing I can come up with is that seoi otoshi is to seoi nage as uki goshi is to o goshi. That is, in seoi nage you load the uke up on the hips whereas in seoi otoshi you don't totally get them on your hips so it's a quicker throw.

    Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
    Jonathan Dirrenberger
    Stanford Jujitsu Club

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    Not exactly an expert, but here's my view on things:

    O GURUMA vs HARAI GOSHI
    These look exactly the same to me. For the life of me, I can't figure out the difference.


    I think Mark can explain this one better, as I'm not to certain about the o-guruma part.

    In the harai-goshi your leg is a main part of the throw, you make a sharp sweeping movement with during the throw. I'm not sure about this but with with the o-guruma you're actually making more kind of a block with your leg.


    UKI GOSHI vs O GOSHI
    Apparently you don't load the uke quite so much on your back for uki goshi as you do with o goshi, making uki goshi much quicker than o goshi. Is this correct?


    That about sums it up, uki-goshi is a bit faster. However you're not acutally carrying on your back, but on your hip.


    HIZA GURUMA vs SASAE TSURIKOMI ASHI
    Is the only difference between these that the sweep takes place at the knee for the former and at the ankle for the latter?


    Placement of the opponents leg is very important here. With hiza-guruma his leg is still behind and starting to move forward. With the sasae-tsurikomi-ashi the leg is actually in front.

    The difference becomes quite apparent and easy to understand when you try to do the sasae when your opponents leg is behind


    ASHI GURUMA vs TAI OTOSHI vs YAMA ARASHI
    The latter two especially look exactly the same to me .....


    Well with the tai-otoshi leg should be stationary, where as with the yama and the ashi your leg is making a blocking/sweeping motion. Can't tell you much more. Someone else probably can... (Mark?)


    HIKIKOMI GAESHI vs SUMI GAESHI
    Same foot placement between the legs, so what is different?


    not sure... can't remember hikikomi from the top of my head... let me grab a book when I get home


    SEOI OTOSHI vs (IPPON) SEOI NAGE
    The only thing I can come up with is that seoi otoshi is to seoi nage as uki goshi is to o goshi. That is, in seoi nage you load the uke up on the hips whereas in seoi otoshi you don't totally get them on your hips so it's a quicker throw.


    The main difference here is in hand placement.

    seoi-otoshi
    your right hand is on his left lapel and stays there, your right elbow moves under his right arm as you start your throwing movement (seen from throw over right should perspective).

    ippon-seoi-nage
    well quite obviously your right arm move under his right arm

    I prefer the first one as it give me a feeling of having more control over my opponent.

    hope this helps... anyone wanna make additions / corrections?
    Last edited by Rogier; 28th July 2004 at 12:18.
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

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    Here's my view...

    O GURUMA vs HARAI GOSHI
    In (right-handed) Harai Goshi your 'loin' (top part at the back of the leg) is used to sweep Ukes leg(s). In O Guruma you pivot on your left foot and spin into the technique, but not as deeply as Harai, you contact with the front of Uke's hips/thighs rather than the top part of the outside of their thigh.

    UKI GOSHI vs O GOSHI
    Uki Goshi is 1-hip rather than 2, i.e. you don't turn in as deeply. Also, you can do the technique by pushing Uke's hips backwards with your hips, rather than by using a full rotation.

    HIZA GURUMA vs SASAE TSURIKOMI ASHI
    What Rogier said!

    ASHI GURUMA vs TAI OTOSHI vs YAMA ARASHI
    Tai Otoshi is a hand technique, no body (or leg!) contact required. The entry for Ashi Guruma is as for O Guruma above. There has
    been lots of discussion about Yama Arashi of these boards, but th consensus lies in the placement of your hands (both on Uke's right side) and the direction of the throw, more to the side rather than the front of Uke.

    HIKIKOMI GAESHI vs SUMI GAESHI
    Angle of Attack (I think!)

    SEOI OTOSHI vs (IPPON) SEOI NAGE
    Seoi Otoshi is the proper 'drop' seoinage, the body position is lower and it's often demonstrated by bending one, or both knees, quite deeply.

    I think the main problem you, and countless others, have is that you are looking at snapshots and hence cannot see the buildup and completion movements of the techniques. Judo is 4-dimensional which is hard to represent in a 2-dimensional photo or drawing.
    Pete Boyes.
    "Whoa, careful now. These are dangerous streets for us upper-lower-middle-class types. So avoid eye contact, watch your pocketbook, and suspect everyone." - Homer Simpson.

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    even while practising them I usually get confused. Pictures or no pictures, judo is always a lot harder than it looks when my teacher does it
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  5. #5
    MarkF Guest

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    The difference between O guruma and harai goshi is pretty much explained in the names of the throws.

    O-guruma = Big (major) wheel throw.

    You may have seen this clip of Mifune doing O-guruma, but if not, check it out then look at a clip of harai goshi --

    http://judoinfo.com/video4.htm

    Click on "O-Guruma."

    It was pretty much explained above by Pete, but O-guruma is not a sweep, or a hip throw. When entering for o-guruma, the leg blocks the body and tori makes a big turn, twisting movemnt, heavily to the left (in a standard side throw). Not much of the hip is inserted, the leg does not sweep. It is placed higher in O-guruma, the inside of your body/leg starts at about the waist, and during the throw, the right leg is across the upper thigh. In Harai goshi, the leg goes across uke's left thigh, and then sweeps at or below the knee of uke's right leg.

    Lean your upper body way to the left while lifting/pulling with your hands in a twisting move, similar to the way a wheel turns instead of a sweeping motion. To practice, enter but with little or no hip in front of tori. Lean to the outside, lifting and pulling with your hands then twist the body to the outside.
    *****

    Uki-goshi/o-goshi.

    The major differences are: in o-goshi, you bend the knees getting your hips underneath, uki is loading on your back, but make sure to enter deeply. No space should be between tori and uke. Use the hips to bump uke up a bit while pulling his arm to your left (standard side) and bring him over with your hand around his back or waist, depending on his size. You can grip the obi, but only in attempting or in the process of the throw. Sink deeply, this is a good, basic throw.

    Uki goshi has some similarities to O-guruma, in that it, too, is more of a block with the hip rather than bending and loading. Legs are kept straight (don't bend at the knees at all), you won't enter both hips to the other side, as uke is thrown over the right (or outside) hip. As in O-guruma, you twist instead of bending and loading, lifting up and over, uke lands at less of a sharp angle as in O-goshi. There may be a clip of Kano doing a left uki-goshi on the same web site in the link above.

    Do not lean as in o-guruma, however, it is simply a twist, uke over the outside part of your hip.
    ******

    Hiza and sasai are covered well by Rogier. I know he likes hiza guruma, or at least he has good knowledge of both. Ask him to clarify further. I actually like them, also, but i have short legs, and while fun to do, they aren't practical for me.
    *****

    Yama Arashi: This throw is taught as differently as there are judo instructors, some comparing it to tai-otoshi and seoinage. But the difference is explained as well as it can be above. Ask your instructor, but generally the foot placement is similar to tai otoshi, both hands on the same side. Feet are not as widely apart, the inside foot should be inside uke's feet. This is difficult to explain as are most judo waza.

    Tai otoshi: It is true that tai otoshi doesn't truly require body contact except with the hands, as it was one of Mifune's kukinage throws. Today's tai otoshi is with the right foot place across and infront of uke. Some plaser the bottom of the foot flat on the mat, others place the foot a little behind or to the outside of uke's outside foot, bending the knee with your toes and ball of the foot only on the mat, pointed straight ahead. Some use the latter to give a litte bit of pop or lift, but Pete is right again, it is truly a hand throw, but you will probably throw uke over the lower thigh or you will throw uke without any contact with your leg. If you want to see a fine exhibition of tai-otoshi in competition, check out Jim Pedro in the 1999 World championship. He won at least one match with that throw and probably does it as well as anyone or better.


    Seoinage v. seoiotoshi:

    If you saw the original way of doing seoiotoshi, you would think it was impossible, probably. Try http://www.bestjudo.com and see if Ben still has that pic posted.

    Other than both involving the shoulder, they are as different as two throws can be. The major difference however, is, even if you drop to your knees for both throws, with seoinage, you lift and throw. Seoiotoshi, you drop and direct uke down, drawing him over the shoulder continuing downward, pulling your arm to the (in)side and a bit upward, just to make sure uke doesn't hit his had on the mat. This isn't a problem if you drop to one knee. Just remember that (ippon) seoiotoshi is not a shoulder throw, that is, uke is not loaded onto the upper back and shoulder as in ippon seoinage, or morote seoinage. In seoinage, you sink down by bending at the knees very low until you are well under the shoulders and just below the hip, lift (if doing morote seoinage, pull with both hands on the arm if doing ippon seoinage), there shouldn't be any space between you and your uke at this point. Some tend to lean forward, this is going to fail as it creates space between tori and uke. I see this error often at shiai. It wastes energy and strength. If your teacher (or anyone else) can slide his hand in between both of you, it isn't being done correctly while beginning to load. Lift, load, pull the arm down and to the side as you load uke. If you drop to one knee or both knees (if you drop to a single knee, throw the outside leg toward the rear. This helps lower your body sufficiently), you still must rise and lift, loading uke on your upper back/shoulder.

    I haven't looked lately, but the seoiotoshi description and drawings were wrong the last time I read the description on http://judoinfo.com , as what is being described is a drop knee ippon seoinage. Dropping one or both legs has nothing to do with the intent of the throws. The shoulder throw is a done by loading uke, seoi otoshi is a body drop (and refers to both tori and uke, but it includes no loading, just a pull downward as you drop, close in and under uke, continuing to direct uke down and over the shoulder.


    That's about all I have, any I missed...oh, sumi gaeshi, corner throw. That should be indicative of which direction you throw. You also don't have to be flat on your back, so it is from your leg to your opposide side shoulder, directionally.


    Hope it helps.


    Mark

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