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Thread: Weapons free-exchanges in Japanese koryu?

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    Default Weapons free-exchanges in Japanese koryu?

    Did it exist in any form, prior to the 18th or 19th century?
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

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    Owari Kan-ryu sojutsu uses free-play, but I'm not sure when they started doing this.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Originally posted by George Kohler
    Owari Kan-ryu sojutsu uses free-play, but I'm not sure when they started doing this.
    Thanks, George.
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

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    Exactly, what is meant by, "free-play"?
    Jonathan Wood

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    'Randori' is how I usually interpret the term. I may be wrong, but considering it is with weapons I'm not sure how free the play would be. However, there are many definitions of randori.


    Mark

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    Originally posted by MarkF
    'Randori' is how I usually interpret the term. I may be wrong, but considering it is with weapons I'm not sure how free the play would be. However, there are many definitions of randori.
    Mark
    I am lost on this too. Exactly how "free" is it. Introduce rules and it cuts down the freedom.

    Wonder if I could one of my basic techniques with freeplay?

    The only freedom I have at the moment is to let the other guy know whats coming. Even then it can get risky as he does not know when unless I make It a bit obvious.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    Default Free-play

    Folks,

    I'm talking about some sort of free-sparring, against a resisting opponent, as opposed to working a two-man form.

    Free-play is a pretty standard method of training in Western fighting arts (fencing, boxing, wrestling, etc), as well as FMA. Mark mentioned randori--the randori in Judo is a good example too--look at how it gave the Kodokan an advantage over the classical jujutsu schools.

    Most classical JSA people insist that kata was the only method used "back in the day", but I personally doubt this. Kata are useful for preserving a given set of techniques, as well as for correcting the finer points of body mechanics within those techniques, but if one is truly going to master timing and distance, I honestly don't see how it can be done without some form of free-sparring.

    I originally became interested in this when a friend of mine showed me an old post from this very site, by Dr. William Bodiford:

    " Adherence both to religious practices and to abstract metaphysics declined throughout the late eighteenth and, especially, nineteenth centuries due to the widespread adoption of competitive forms of martial training and to foreign threats (Emoto 1988). Significantly, competition developed first in rural areas outside of the urban mainstream. The spread of martial art training among peasants and other commoners has not been well-studied, partially from lack of scholarly interest but mainly because peasants did not write scholastic martial art treatises. Nonetheless it is clear that many rural households maintained or developed family traditions of martial art training and that as rural society became more stratified they began to practice them openly as a means of acquiring status. Lacking scholarly pretensions, rural martial artists emphasized mastery of technique and physical prowess, which they tested in competitive matches. In the early 1800s when rural-trained fencers finally appeared in Edo (modern Tokyo), they easily defeated men of samurai status who had been trained in Confucian theory (or Zen), ceremonial decorum, and prearranged pattern exercises (kata ). Thereafter established martial art lineages that had emphasized theory or mental training became subjects of ridicule, while new lineages that taught competition (uchikomi keiko) flourished. =========

    The basic data on which this assertion rests, was first published by Prof. Watanabe Ichiro, in his book: Bakumatsu Kanto Kenjutsu Eimeiroku no Kenkyu (Investigations of Kenjutsu Rosters in Eastern Japan at the End of the Tokugawa Period, 1967). This book contains detailed lists of competitions: dates, names, schools, styles, who won, who lost, etc.

    Watanabe's research was expanded by one of his students named Emoto Shoji. Emoto described the results of his research in the following essay: "Bakumatsu kendo ni okeru nijuteki seikaku no keisei katei" (The Formation of a Split Personality in Fencing at the End of the Tokugawa Period), in the volume titled: Nihon budogaku kenkyu: Watanabe Ichiro kyoju taikan kinen ronshu (Studies in Japanese Martial Arts: Research Commemorating the Retirement of Professor Watanabe Ichiro), edited by Irie Kohei and Sugie Masatoshi (1988). In his notes, Emoto cites the kenjutsu rosters that have come to light since Watanabe completed his groundbreaking research.

    These rosters list too many competitions and too many names to list here. If you are interested in researching this topic, then the best advice I can give you is to read the above-mentioned works published by Watanabe and by Emoto.

    William Bodiford Associate Professor Department of East Asian Languages UCLA "


    This got me to thinking--the methods of the "rural-trained fencers" surely didn't appear out of thin air, and so I have since wondered as to whether or not some sort of free-sparring with mock weapons existed prior to the time described by Bodiford (early 19th century).

    Thanks again,

    David
    Last edited by Nanban Bushi; 29th July 2004 at 12:47.
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

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    Nanban

    Actually "free play" was only part of a pretty good sized bag of training methods use by "western arts" or "western style fencers"

    Much of the training consisted of specifc "drills" "two person exercises" and solo training with specific series of cuts, thrusts and parries with specific patterns of footwork (could be argued that would be a form of solo kata)

    Most of the "fenceing" systems had a number of grappling techniques and training as well as training with more weapons than just the sword.

    Not really accurate not to include the other training methods.

    Makes it sound as if the western training model was just two guys hammering each other in "free sparring" sessions.


    Chris Thomas

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    Originally posted by cxt
    Nanban

    Actually "free play" was only part of a pretty good sized bag of training methods use by "western arts" or "western style fencers"

    Much of the training consisted of specifc "drills" "two person exercises" and solo training with specific series of cuts, thrusts and parries with specific patterns of footwork (could be argued that would be a form of solo kata)

    Most of the "fenceing" systems had a number of grappling techniques and training as well as training with more weapons than just the sword.

    Not really accurate not to include the other training methods.

    Makes it sound as if the western training model was just two guys hammering each other in "free sparring" sessions.


    Chris Thomas
    Chris,

    I'm very familiar with Western fencing's other training methods, as I have been fencing since '94 (French school).

    I am also aware of the "grappling techniques" (ringen, ringkampf, lotta, abrazzare, presas, et al) and other weapons-play that you spoke of, in regards to the Medieval & Renaissance European traditions.

    I did not say (nor did I mean to imply) that free-sparring was the only method used in Western training--I simply meant that free-sparring is something that has always been emphasized, and it is one of Western fencing's strengths, just as randori is in judo.

    Peace,

    David
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

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    All,

    There may be a stereotype of what koryu training was/is, owing to how it is presently done. That is not a good indicator of what happened in the past. Combative methods in premodern Japan were studied in a variety of ways, like Western methods, as the Japanese martial artists seemed to be intent on dissecting and analyzing methods and putting them to the test even way "back then." Some ryu utilized controlled contests to test their methods more than others.

    Kendo, for example, kept moving towards safer means of testing sword techniques against someone else outside of kata geiko, ending up with the Edo-period bamboo shinai and bogu, after quite a long period of evolution and experimentation. Contests between different dojo and ryuha, as noted, were quite extensive. Besides the stated sources for records of contests, there are also quite a number of documents full of anecdotes from the Edo Period about training in dojo that used both kata geiko and "free" exercises. I recall reading about one dojo from the Edo Period where the "free" training was particularly harsh...After a match, a visiting student took off his men and spat out blood from being hit so hard on the head with a shinai. Other dojo allowed students to go beyond the use of the shinai to trip, throw, and grapple with an opponent in full armor.

    Similarly, from anecdotes within my own ryu, the Takeuchi-ryu, the Bitchuden line at least engaged in sportive grappling matches, leading to the formulation of new lines of kata to encapsualate techniques specifically for those kinds of contests, outside of self-defense or military combat. Again, this occurred during the Edo Period and up through the Bakumatsu, Meiji and Taisho Period, when Kodokan judo made its appearance.

    Contrary to some statements, jujutsu schools of that time did NOT lose to Kodokan judo due only doing kata geiko. Jujutsu schools had their own "freestyle" training methods and participated in sportive matches long before the Kodokan made its mark. Kano Jigoro's innovation wasn't so much revolutionary as evolutionary; he took elements of jujutsu ryu he studied firsthand and did an interesting thing; he studied the mechanics of other ryu and Western wrestling and applied them altogether to his new Kodokan judo, opening up the school to any and all techniques if they worked well within the rubric of a sportive endeavor, not so much as a way to cause permanent and bodily harm to an opponent. And he put aside the whole nature of the old koryu system, such as the menkyo kaiden and family lineage lines of transmission, laying the groundwork for subsequent modern budo systems.

    That most present day koryu jujutsu schools don't emphasize randori and contests is probably due to the success of Kodokan judo as a national sport. If it works, and works so well and broadly, why set up splinter groups? ...Just focus on kata geiko if you want to do koryu and if you really want to do randori and shiai, join a judo club. In fact, I visited the Hontai Yoshin-ryu jujutsu school once a long time ago. The younger Inoue sensei taught the system with his father, the soke, and on alternate days, as a judo godan he taught Kodokan judo. --No big deal to him. Each served a purpose.

    Wayne Muromoto

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    Nanban


    Not to be a nit-picking horses-arse here.

    But your still useing terms and phrases like "free sparring...has always been emphasized."

    That may be the current SPORTING trend, but given that classicial "western" training methodlogies embraced.

    -Specifc two man drills

    -Solo practice with specific cuts, thrusts, parries, footwork

    -Work on various "dummies" or targets

    -Free Practice

    -Various drills and training methods to improve "wind" hand strength, speed etc.

    And we have no way of really knowing just how much time was spent in training in two person specific exercises compared to "free practice" you can't really say that "free sparring has always been emhasized."

    See we don't really know that.

    We know it WAS done--we just don't know how MUCH.

    Also probably differed considerably from school to school.

    Also being familier with saber fenceing--I am of the opinion (shared by the way by a number of really expert folks) that "free practice" and actually fighting with intent to kill are worlds apart.

    And the use of "safty equipment" not only fundamental changes the nature of the contest--but actually leads to habits that can get you killed.

    In short, the introduction of specific rules as to target area leads to ONLY those targets being trained--sorry but its true.

    This has been seen in both modern kendo and western sport fenceing.

    The introduction of "mock" weapons-the shinai in kendo and the foil in fenceing means movements can be made with the "mock" weapons that just can't be done with "real" weapons.

    This also has been commented on by folks alot more expert than me.

    In classical saber, the techniques revolve around a full arm cut--since that is the only way to cut a man down-esp if wearing a heavy jacket or uniform--not to mention armor.

    As saber became a sport--the cuts "moved" as it were to use of the elbow--then done futher to the wrist.

    Becoming less and less effective.

    My saber teacher in college used to amuse himself by passing around a "real" saber to his class then watch as the various student "experts" attemped to use it as a "free practice" saber.

    Could not be done.

    Again, it degrades the art--its works fine "on the strip" I question its use "for real."

    Fact is, (esp!!) when dealing with weapons, most of the deadlist techniques just can't be "free practiced" with any degree of safty.

    Also having witnessed first hand on the havoc the over-dependence on a "rules" bound "free-sparring" can wreck.

    Not sure that I would be so quick to list free-sparring as a "strength."

    No question it helps--equally sure it can create some really bad (read this as potential fatal habits)

    It leads to ONLY the techniques used in tournament to being practiced, it leads to the wretched display of "sparring" seen in "open" karate tournaments.

    Properly used, I think of "free practice" as an asset--I my view however, it is seldom properly used.


    Chris Thomas
    Last edited by cxt; 30th July 2004 at 16:34.

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    Originally posted by cxt
    Nanban
    Also being familier with saber fenceing--I am of the opinion (shared by the way by a number of really expert folks) that "free practice" and actually fighting with intent to kill are worlds apart.

    And the use of "safty equipment" not only fundamental changes the nature of the contest--but actually leads to habits that can get you killed.
    Chris Thomas
    Ah, now thats what got me confused with the original question as we dont use safety equipment or mock weapons and do attack with intent.

    So to answer the question Nanban Bushi said: I'm talking about some sort of free-sparring, against a resisting opponent, as opposed to working a two-man form.....

    Yes that what we do. Its called Kata/Waza. True kata does offer resistance. Its not a working two-man form such as, "I cut then you parry and cut me thing".

    Its free enough for people to use a lot of intent that would cause hospitalization if its not dealt with correctly and precisley and gives little indication as to when an attack will be made.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    Hyaku

    Part of that is my fault.

    When folks start talking about western sword play and free practice.

    They are usually talking the use of heavily altered weapons.

    Much lighter, differently shaped, and with very different handleing chacteristics than a "real" blade.

    Even the classical weapons that we have record of seem to have been significantly altered for "safty."

    Mainly thu the use of "blunts" or metal balls welded to the tips of the sword, or in more extreme cases-a sharp blade with a pair of longish screws threaded thu BOTH sides of the tip of the blade--designed to prevent a thrust from penetrating more than an 1/2 inch--sometimes more.

    But the use of even these items are pretty much far in the past--no-one has really been training with "blunts", in the classical sense ie a "real" blade in terms of weight,, length, handeling chacateristics etc. with the edges ground off-or never put on, since the the late 1800's, possible earlier, depending on whom you ask

    For the last 150 years or so, most "free sparring" in western fenceing has been conducted with extremely lightweight "mock" weapons.

    So when people say, "free sparring" when they are talking about western sword traditions---I tend to be a little pedantic in the accuracy of the use of the term.

    Not sure that it "really" means what folks think it does.

    Not better or worse, just different.

    Should have been clearer in my response.


    Chris Thomas

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    Chris,

    Originally posted by cxt
    Nanban
    Please--feel free to call me David.


    Not to be a nit-picking horses-arse here.


    You are anything but that, good sir (though I may indulge in a bit of nitpicking myself )

    But your still useing terms and phrases like "free sparring...has always been emphasized."


    It has always been an important feature.

    That may be the current SPORTING trend, but given that classicial "western" training methodlogies embraced.

    -Specifc two man drills


    Which is still done today...

    -Solo practice with specific cuts, thrusts, parries, footwork


    One still sees this with footwork, point control, etc...

    -Work on various "dummies" or targets


    Not as common these days, but lunge targets can still be found in various salles, and there's the ol' ball on a rope bit, for point control exercises.

    -Free Practice


    Yes...

    -Various drills and training methods to improve "wind" hand strength, speed etc.


    "Wind" hand strength?

    And we have no way of really knowing just how much time was spent in training in two person specific exercises compared to "free practice" you can't really say that "free sparring has always been emhasized."


    It was done since at least Roman times, as mentioned by Vegetius.

    See we don't really know that.

    We know it WAS done--we just don't know how MUCH.


    Well, tests in German and English fencing guilds always included some form of free-play in their ranking contests, which argues that it actually played a crucial role. One had to prove oneself in bouts with various weapons.

    Also probably differed considerably from school to school.


    Perhaps.

    Also being familier with saber fenceing--I am of the opinion (shared by the way by a number of really expert folks) that "free practice" and actually fighting with intent to kill are worlds apart.


    I agree--but I also feel that the former is needed in order to be competent with the latter.

    And the use of "safty equipment" not only fundamental changes the nature of the contest--but actually leads to habits that can get you killed.


    The addition of various rules and/or equipment can certainly "change the game", and it can lead to problems--this was something that was debated hundreds of years ago. However, the necessity of various types of free-play was still recognized.

    In short, the introduction of specific rules as to target area leads to ONLY those targets being trained--sorry but its true.


    Even in those cases, sparring can be an extremely useful exercise in terms of developing time and measure.

    This has been seen in both modern kendo and western sport fenceing.
    Care to elaborate?

    The introduction of "mock" weapons-the shinai in kendo and the foil in fenceing means movements can be made with the "mock" weapons that just can't be done with "real" weapons.


    And yet, foil remained a prerequisite for moving on to saber, epee, and even quarterstaff in the English schools of the late 1800s.

    This also has been commented on by folks alot more expert than me.


    And it is something I am likewise aware of--but it doesn't change the importance of free-sparring.

    In classical saber, the techniques revolve around a full arm cut--since that is the only way to cut a man down-esp if wearing a heavy jacket or uniform--not to mention armor.

    As saber became a sport--the cuts "moved" as it were to use of the elbow--then done futher to the wrist.


    OK, time for some "nitpicking" on my part...

    First of all, it should be pointed out that, in the Western tradition, cuts are delivered from the wrist (fastest, but weakest), the shoulder (slowest, but most powerful), and the elbow (a happy compromise).

    Wrist and elbow cuts were favored in Renaissance Italian swordplay, for quick (and disabling) blows to the hand, wrist, forearm, etc.

    You should also know that it was in fact rather common for even Anglo-Scottish broadsword and backsword men to make use of cuts from the wrist only, in the 18th and 19th centuries--it's not a new development by any means.

    The circular cut from the elbow (molinello; moulinet) was also used with military broadswords and sabers, and it of course became the signature cutting method with the lighter sciabola di terreno, which was developed by maestro Giuseppe Radaelli in the mid-19th century.

    Becoming less and less effective.


    To be frank, that is downright misleading.

    You are inferring that cuts from the wrist and elbow are "less effective" than cuts from the shoulder, but this is not so. They have less power, but they are not necessarily "less effective".

    But hey, let's see what Giacomo di Grassi said about it, in his treatise of 1570:

    "The arm likewise is not in every part of equal force and swiftness, but differs in every bowing thereof, that is to say in the wrist, in the elbow, and in the shoulder: for the blows of the wrist as they are more swift, so they are less strong: And the other two, as they are more strong, so they are more slow, because they perform a greater compass. Therefore by my counsel, he that would deliver an edgeblow shall fetch no compass with his shoulder, because while he bears his sword far off, he gives time to the wary enemy to enter first: but he shall only used the compass of the elbow and wrist: which, as they be most swift, so are they strong enough, if they be orderly handled."

    And so, cuts from the elbow and wrist were considered more than sufficient, which makes sense, considering the threat from the point-agile, cut-and-thrust spada used by the Italians.

    My saber teacher in college used to amuse himself by passing around a "real" saber to his class then watch as the various student "experts" attemped to use it as a "free practice" saber.

    Could not be done.


    What kind of "real" saber was it?

    19th century military fencers certainly made use of a comparatively heavy, blunted practice weapon--a weapon which required the use of heavily padded equipment to avoid broken bones. This weapon was certainly used for "free practice".

    Again, it degrades the art--its works fine "on the strip" I question its use "for real."


    All training methods have their pros and cons.

    Fact is, (esp!!) when dealing with weapons, most of the deadlist techniques just can't be "free practiced" with any degree of safty.


    Such as?

    Also having witnessed first hand on the havoc the over-dependence on a "rules" bound "free-sparring" can wreck.

    Not sure that I would be so quick to list free-sparring as a "strength."


    When employed intelligently, it is most certainly a "strength".

    No question it helps--equally sure it can create some really bad (read this as potential fatal habits)


    I do not contest that.

    It leads to ONLY the techniques used in tournament to being practiced, it leads to the wretched display of "sparring" seen in "open" karate tournaments.


    Properly used, "free practice" is clearly an asset--arguably an essential one.

    --I my view however, it is seldom properly used.
    Then we must agree to disagree.

    Peace,

    David
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

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    Originally posted by hyaku
    Ah, now thats what got me confused with the original question as we dont use safety equipment or mock weapons and do attack with intent.

    So to answer the question Nanban Bushi said: I'm talking about some sort of free-sparring, against a resisting opponent, as opposed to working a two-man form.....

    Yes that what we do. Its called Kata/Waza. True kata does offer resistance. Its not a working two-man form such as, "I cut then you parry and cut me thing".

    Its free enough for people to use a lot of intent that would cause hospitalization if its not dealt with correctly and precisley and gives little indication as to when an attack will be made.
    Hyakutake,

    But, in the kata/waza, do you have to be concerned about where the attack will be made? For example, are you allowed to feint high and strike low?

    Thanks,

    David
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

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