Likes Likes:  0
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 85

Thread: Weapons free-exchanges in Japanese koryu?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    126
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Chris,

    Originally posted by cxt
    When folks start talking about western sword play and free practice.

    They are usually talking the use of heavily altered weapons.

    Much lighter, differently shaped, and with very different handleing chacteristics than a "real" blade.

    Even the classical weapons that we have record of seem to have been significantly altered for "safty."

    Mainly thu the use of "blunts" or metal balls welded to the tips of the sword, or in more extreme cases-a sharp blade with a pair of longish screws threaded thu BOTH sides of the tip of the blade--designed to prevent a thrust from penetrating more than an 1/2 inch--sometimes more.


    Critics of free-sparring constantly bring up the compromises which have to be made for safety, in terms of the weapons used.

    As for the "different handling characteristics" of mock weapons--again, those differences have been noted for a long time. Also, both Renaissance European swordsmen and modern-day Filipino eskrimadors stress the importance of a fighter being able to defend himself "with anything whatsoever" (to paraphrase di Grassi), whether it be a sword, a stick, an umbrella, or whatever--all of which have "different handling characteristics--so I think the problems concerning the differences between "real" and "mock" weapons is a bit played out.

    But the use of even these items are pretty much far in the past--no-one has really been training with "blunts", in the classical sense ie a "real" blade in terms of weight,, length, handeling chacateristics etc. with the edges ground off-or never put on, since the the late 1800's, possible earlier, depending on whom you ask


    Early 1900's to be more exact--since such weapons were still being used for teaching both heavy military saber, and the lighter Italian sciabola di terreno.

    It should also be pointed out that, in the modern Italian school, edge awareness with the saber is still taught (and this is something that one has not seen in sports competition for a long time).

    For the last 150 years or so, most "free sparring" in western fenceing has been conducted with extremely lightweight "mock" weapons.


    Again, not true--close approximations of sabers of all types were in use right thru the beginning of the 20th century. Singlesticks were used too, though they were often criticized for being too light (Western fencers of that time often voiced the same complaints that one hears today from JSA exponents regarding the shinai).

    In addition, the epee was still used for duels at this time, and the epee is realistically weighted for the kind of sword that it is (ie., an ultra-refined thrusting tool).

    So when people say, "free sparring" when they are talking about western sword traditions---I tend to be a little pedantic in the accuracy of the use of the term.


    I originally mentioned that it's common to FMA as well.

    Not sure that it "really" means what folks think it does.

    Not better or worse, just different.

    I can't personally think of any "better" way to train time and measure, personally.

    Peace,

    David
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    126
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default On bastardized sparring formats

    Chris & Everyone Else...

    I want to make it clear that I agree with the whole "give and take" issue of sparring weapon designs, and sparring rules limitations. I also share your grievances regarding downright bastardized sparring formats, which have little combative application.

    I mentioned the Italian school's comparative functionality, but the sad fact is that sports saber has lost the majority of its combative focus. Even "cuts" with the flat of the blade are counted!

    The WEKAF-style full armored stickfighting tournaments are a joke too--contestants use the lightest possible sticks, and concentrate (due to the rules) only on offense. They try to land as many shots as possible, without any concern for taking hits themselves, that they would never take in a real stickfight.

    That is why there are alternative formats, like the WEKAF minimal armor tournaments, as well as the Dog Brothers' approach.

    Still, when done intelligently, free-sparring is, IMO, essential to the fighting man. Again, how else can you really develop a sense of time and measure? Engaging in the assault (to use the old term for free-play) is the best way to do this.

    Peace,

    David
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    JAPAN
    Posts
    1,620
    Likes (received)
    108

    Default

    Originally posted by Nanban Bushi Hyakutake,

    But, in the kata/waza, do you have to be concerned about where the attack will be made? For example, are you allowed to feint high and strike low?

    Thanks,

    David
    If someone did a feint and it did not work we would be calling an ambulance. Some of our cuts strike down overhead in a wide movement and end up a centimetre from the floor.

    We try to work on total commital, otherwise we cant bring in any realism. The difference is we work with fundamentals that have been worked on for years so there is of natural reaction to a given situation. Actually talking about that last night someone came on a bit physicaly strong and I found myself starting to react. Seems to me one needs to be a bit carefull if things are too free and a situation has to be controlled and predetermined a bit to make it safe, especially with weapons.

    Then again we dont use feints anyway. Its not like Kendo. We try to work on honestly killing people that have attacked us. We deal decisively with an intiated attack with a precise counter that includes both avoidance and attack. If there is not attack from the initiator, there is no conflict. The honesty is twofold. The lesson is it should help in everyday life in dealing with things in a straightforward honest manner.

    The fact that we know what they are going to do allows us to deal with it and not injure them. But moves are so quick its difficult to add a high percentage to an attack one sometimes concentrate more on avoiding.

    Protective equipment and mock weapons or both allow us a sense of freedom that can without doubt become too free if taken lightly. That's when we can afford to feint whatever and try things out. But do tryouts dont help us win the day? Isnt its the techniques we have commited to memory, the ones we can do subconciously that usually win.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    1,394
    Likes (received)
    84

    Default

    Nanban/David

    With all respect.

    Having trained in western saber.

    I can personally tell you that in current "free play" ie. flicking a ultra-light length of wire about, ONLY targeting specific areas, wearing a heavily padded jacket and mask, on a "strip" of specifc dimension and length--that you can't step off of.

    Only allows the development of "timing and measure" as you put it for the SPORT described above.

    Does almost nothing for the use of a "real" weapon.

    In fact the "timing and measure" developed by the above "free play" is seriously flawed for combative purpose.

    Don't belive me??

    Fair enough--just try it yourself.

    Introduce a blunted "real" weapaon into your practice-or a heavier wooden one.

    Take of the jacket and mask then have a go.

    I have done and seen it done.

    The results are NOT pretty--but they ARE informative.

    In the case of the saber, even manuvering the weapon becomes a struggle for those used to flicking about a length of wire with there "wrists"

    The carfefully crafted sense of "timeing and measure" falls apart--now the daring lunges, assults and attacks become "too dangerous" to try. And the rapid "flicks" are almost impossibe.

    The fundamental nature of the match is changed to the extent that 1000s of hours of "free play" becomes pretty much useless.

    The "timeing and measure" are now so different as to be a beast of another sort entirly.

    Current "free play" is only good for playing.

    Fighting is a whole other animal.

    As Hank Reinhardt,Amberger, Naldi and a number of other have mentioned.


    Chris Thomas
    Last edited by cxt; 31st July 2004 at 20:46.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    126
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Chris,

    Originally posted by cxt
    Nanban/David

    With all respect.

    Having trained in western saber.

    I can personally tell you that in current "free play" ie. flicking a ultra-light length of wire about, ONLY targeting specific areas, wearing a heavily padded jacket and mask, on a "strip" of specifc dimension and length--that you can't step off of.


    Actually, unless the rules have been changed recently, one can step off the piste with one foot (eg., for an inquartata).

    Only allows the development of "timing and measure" as you put it for the SPORT described above.

    Does almost nothing for the use of a "real" weapon.


    Then I can only surmise that your fencing and MA experience has been rather different from mine, as I have found my fencing training to crossover to FMA very well--and I am not alone in this.

    In fact the "timing and measure" developed by the above "free play" is seriously flawed for combative purpose.


    For the umpteenth time, I'm very familiar with modern fencing's diluted nature, and the problems that it can cause--but that does NOT mean that it is useless for other applications.

    Don't belive me??

    Fair enough--just try it yourself.

    Introduce a blunted "real" weapaon into your practice-or a heavier wooden one.


    I already have.

    Take of the jacket and mask then have a go.


    No protection at all? Not even the Dog Brothers do that.

    In the Philippines, certain groups train in that manner, but it's admittedly not for me.

    I have done and seen it done.

    The results are NOT pretty--but they ARE informative.

    In the case of the saber, even manuvering the weapon becomes a struggle for those used to flicking about a length of wire with there "wrists"


    For clarification, what kind of "real" weapon(s) are you talking about? I ask this because your description sounds like what happens when someone tries to take an overly heavy and ill-balanced replica and "fence" with it.

    As I already mentioned, there are plenty of "real" swords that can be manipulated from the wrist--backswords, spadroons, sabers, etc. I have also quoted from period manuals, that bear this out.

    So, perhaps you were using inferior (ie., overly heavy and ill-balanced) replicas for your experiment?

    I have been fortunate in my days to have handled many original pieces, including:

    English and Scottish basket-hilted broadswords and backswords.

    European military sabers.

    European swept-hilt rapiers.

    European smallswords.

    Filipino bolos and talibongs.

    I can say that originals are invariably lighter and better balanced the most replicas--in fact, there are still far too many replica swords which are downright clunkers.

    My own maestro noted this too, when he went to the Tower of London, and handled many originals. His previous experience with "period pieces" had been limited to mediocre replicas. In reference to both rapiers and basket-hilts that he had handled, he told me, "Dave, you could actually fence with these things."

    The carfefully crafted sense of "timeing and measure" falls apart--now the daring lunges, assults and attacks become "too dangerous" to try.


    Without headgear, it's going to obviously be much riskier, and influence what one does.

    But, then again, there are few (if any) genuine "swordsmen" these days, so what's your point? Are you claiming that kata will prepare you better for the same experiment?

    And the rapid "flicks" are almost impossibe.


    By "flicks", do you mean the modern saber "cuts" from the fingers and wrist? Of course they're impossible (and why would you want to use them with a "real" sword anyway?), but all one needs to do is adjust one's grip and cut from the wrist and/or elbow--I've done it, and it's not a big deal at all. I've seen plenty of other fencers do it too.

    The fundamental nature of the match is changed to the extent that 1000s of hours of "free play" becomes pretty much useless.

    The "timeing and measure" are now so different as to be a beast of another sort entirly.

    Current "free play" is only good for playing.


    I heartily disagree--my fencing background has only helped my FMA stick and knife work, as well as my experiments with English singlestick-play (and I've made a variety of singlesticks, from light Victorian-style 3/4" ones, to heavier 7/8" and 1" models, closer to those used in the 1700s--but even the lightest ones are heavier and handle differently than a modern sports saber).

    Fighting is a whole other animal.


    So are you saying that kata is closer to that "animal"? Please explain...

    Peace,

    David
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    6
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    cxt,

    Also being familier with saber fenceing--I am of the opinion (shared by the way by a number of really expert folks) that "free practice" and actually fighting with intent to kill are worlds apart.
    There will always be a difference. But if one wants to train realisticly, the goal is to make their free-play (sparring) as close to the real thing as possible without causing serious injury.

    Modern fencing is very removed from real combat, yet even with it's specialized rules, it still prepares one well for many types of free-sparring with many types of bladed weapons (knives and other single handed swords). The modern sports fencer would need some time to adjust to the weight or handling characteristics of the new weapon, but the skills of measuring distance and trained reaction are still there. The essential muscle memory and "preparedness" that one has against unpredictable attacks becomes second nature. This is an essential element in any martial art that intends to train the student realistically.


    And the use of "safty equipment" not only fundamental changes the nature of the contest--but actually leads to habits that can get you killed.
    The student must be aware of this if he is training for realism, and thus avoid unrealistic actions that are afforded by the either the difference in his training weapon or his protection. The idea here would be to spar with a training weapon that is weighted and balanced similarly to the real thing, and remove the rules that would mask the reality of actual (live blade) combat.

    I personally think that one has the most chance of being killed if they trained solely in kata and two man drills in order to prepare themselves for a real fight. I feel that both drilling and free sparring are ESSENTIAL. One must learn how to defend themselves against a skilled, fully resisiting opponent who has the same intent on winning.

    In my personal experience, the most efficient and effective opponents I have sparred with were fencers. This includes a variety of weapons such as like knives (mock), English style single-stick swords (1 inch diameter basket-hilted dowels weighted like a sword) and other mock wooden blades. The high level sport fencers were all able to make the transition to the new weapon faily easily and quickly. Their sense of timing and distance remained once they got used to the new weapon.

    In short, the introduction of specific rules as to target area leads to ONLY those targets being trained--sorry but its true.
    Once again, this is why one must make the free-sparring as close to the real thing as possible. But, even so, as I pointed out before, the degree to which most sport fencers are able to succesfully make the transition to other, heavier weapons, with unlimited target areas and fewer rules, demonstrates the effectiveness of some of the essential skills learned in thier sport bouting.

    Free-movement of some sort, against a fully resisting opponent is essential if one wants to become realistically proficient at a combat art.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    1,394
    Likes (received)
    84

    Default

    Nanban

    See, now your just being foolish.

    You can't get combative useful "timing and measure" by free-play with fake (read fake as ultra light) weapons.

    So the whole rational of your "free-play" argument providing good training IN "timing and measure" falls apart.

    Your also being foolish on your response ie.

    I say you have to stay on the strip--your response "One can step one foot off"

    Whoa! one whole foot? Wow! that certainly proves me wrong does it not?
    I mean you can step one whole foot off the the strip--Yeah THAT is the very picture of "real" combative training!

    Please, at least try!

    Again, just because a saber CAN be used with the wrist and finger does not mean that IT SHOULD BE--again, any number of period saber manuals STRONGLY FOCUS on the use of full arm cuts--specifically because cuts with the wrist simply are not going to "cut it" (yes thats a pun) in battlefield combat.

    The use of wrist and finger is a SPORTING appliaction usefully only with heavily altered "sport sabers." Not the real thing.

    More to the point

    Your wanting to turn this into some kind of kata vs free-play debate--one which you will lose.

    Chris Thomas

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    1,394
    Likes (received)
    84

    Default

    Ye Olde


    You are missing the point of kata training.

    More to the point--please name for me a couple of schools of classicial rapier.

    I mean a real school--one that has carried on an unbroken line of training from its heyday until today.

    Oh, wait, they don't exsist!

    The use of the rapier went out of style so long ago and the weapons went from rapier to smallsword to "olympic" style.

    (yeah know I am jumping several 100 years here)

    There is no-one alive that can say with certainty exactly how to to use a rapier.

    Oh, we can guess, we can speculate, we can re-construct. But we don't really KNOW-not in the emperical sense.

    That is the main strength of the Japanese methods--the techniques and specifc training methods WERE preserverd.

    Thats better than guesswork.

    Again, just in case you missed it, there is FAR MORE to the western method than "free play."

    Its only PART of the training.

    No-way to tell if it was the main focus or not.

    Chris Thomas

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    1,394
    Likes (received)
    84

    Default

    Nanban

    Ye Olde


    Gotta ask guys what is the purpose of your coming here?

    This is entire website is for Asian arts.

    This forum is CALLED "Koryu" for petes sake.

    And yet here you come to have a "whose art is better" debate.

    (and in case you are curious--what your doing is NOT new, seems like every 6 months or so someone shows up to push their own training agenda and methods--to show how the koryu are somehow "wrong" and their method is some how "right." and they miss the point of koryu utterly)

    Do you have anyone here logging on to the many western arts forums and give you crap about how western arts have degenerated into useless sport?

    No you don't. I don't know if its better manners or what, but we don't do things like that.

    Yet here you are wanting to show us all the error of our ways--ie what "I" do is better THAN WHAT YOU DO.

    And yes thats exactly how your coming across.

    Kinda why the folks here have pretty much ignored you.

    Most folks were polite enough to responde until they realized that what you "really" wanted was to have what my grandfather would call a "pecker contest."

    And that just is not very interesting to most of folks here.

    Me, I 'll argue with an echo just for the practice. And I'll shred you, I know as much about western arts, the strength and weakness, as you do.

    But I still have to question the apperent need for you guys to show how what YOU do is good and what WE do is bad.

    Sounds kinda weak to me.

    Most folks secure in what they do simply don't need to engage in such childish behavior.


    Chris Thomas
    Last edited by cxt; 2nd August 2004 at 16:28.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Hilo, Hawaii
    Posts
    179
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I found the thread to be kind of interesting.

    Chris, it seems to me that you kind of pushed the thread towards a discussion of Western martial arts, and chose to make it an argument about the training methodologies (which might not be a word, looks wierd to me now) used in classical Western swordsmanship. I didn't notice David making any such comparisons with regards to JSA, but then maybe I missed it. I also didn't notice some of the other stuff that you accuse David of, but then maybe I read it differently. But that's the impression I got from following the thread.

    As for "Ye Olde", best ignored. C'mon, the guy creates a new username and makes one post, doesn't provide a name, etc. Not worth responding to.

    David, in regards to your original question:

    I read this book by this Dave Lowry guy (no, not the hockey guy who plays for the Calgary Flames, though that would be kind of interesting), called "Autumn Lightning" or something like that. In it he kind of talks story about (if I remember right, probably I don't) the start of the Shin Kage school of kenjutsu, and I kind of remember there being some references to freeplay, and I think maybe even the creation of the shinai. It was kind of written as historical fiction or something, but it did sort of imply there was some sort of "freeplay." I don't know if how historically accurate it was, or was even inteded to be. But it may have relevance to what you were asking.

    Probably if you were to ship him a fresh poke sampler set, he'd be willing to discuss the subject with you.

    -Charles
    ----------
    Charles Lockhart
    FBI: From da' Big Island

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    126
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    cxt,

    Originally posted by cxt
    Nanban

    See, now your just being foolish.


    How so?

    You can't get combative useful "timing and measure" by free-play with fake (read fake as ultra light) weapons.


    Sure you can.

    And, as I already stated, I am not the only person who feels that way.


    So the whole rational of your "free-play" argument providing good training IN "timing and measure" falls apart.


    LOL--tell that to Kalis Ilustrisimo/Floro Fighting Systems instructor Ray Floro, who also happens to be a fencer.

    I can only surmise that you suffer from some sort of "Combat Sport Myopia"--ie., you cannot see the practical application of combat sports.

    Your also being foolish on your response ie.

    I say you have to stay on the strip--your response "One can step one foot off"

    Whoa! one whole foot? Wow! that certainly proves me wrong does it not?
    I mean you can step one whole foot off the the strip--Yeah THAT is the very picture of "real" combative training!


    I was simply correcting your inaccurate generalization (one of several, in your case) about what can and cannot be done in sport fencing--nothing more, nothing less.

    Please, at least try!


    I have done far more than that--I have countered every claim you have made thus far. You inferred that cuts from the elbow and wrist were ineffective, and I provided PERIOD SOURCES and EXAMPLES that indicate otherwise (and I find it vaguely amusing how you have ignored all of that).

    Again, just because a saber CAN be used with the wrist and finger does not mean that IT SHOULD BE--again, any number of period saber manuals STRONGLY FOCUS on the use of full arm cuts--specifically because cuts with the wrist simply are not going to "cut it" (yes thats a pun) in battlefield combat.


    I never said that cuts from the shoulder weren't used, but the fact remains that cuts from the elbow and wrist were liberally employed as well.

    The use of wrist and finger is a SPORTING appliaction usefully only with heavily altered "sport sabers." Not the real thing.


    Dude, why can't you even accurately quote and/or paraphrase me?

    I never said the a saber (or any other sword) meant for actual combat should be used with the "wrist and finger".

    What I said was that such swords can be wielded effectively from the wrist and elbow--and, unlike you, I cited period treatises to back my case.

    More to the point

    Your wanting to turn this into some kind of kata vs free-play debate--one which you will lose.


    Ooooh! Brrrr!

    I'm really shaking, Chris.

    I never intended for this to be a "kata vs. free-play debate"--I'm simply trying to find evidence for free-play being used in the Japanese arts prior to the 19th century. If you can help me with that, great. If you cannot, no big deal either.

    Peace,

    David
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    126
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    cxt,

    Originally posted by cxt
    Ye Olde


    You are missing the point of kata training.

    More to the point--please name for me a couple of schools of classicial rapier.

    I mean a real school--one that has carried on an unbroken line of training from its heyday until today.

    Oh, wait, they don't exsist!

    The use of the rapier went out of style so long ago and the weapons went from rapier to smallsword to "olympic" style.

    (yeah know I am jumping several 100 years here)

    There is no-one alive that can say with certainty exactly how to to use a rapier.

    Oh, we can guess, we can speculate, we can re-construct. But we don't really KNOW-not in the emperical sense.

    That is the main strength of the Japanese methods--the techniques and specifc training methods WERE preserverd.


    And I think it's pretty naive on your part to assume that the Japanese arts haven't changed over time. Just look at the ostensibly vast gulf in actual ability between the 19th century "rural fencers" and their more kata-based cosmopolitan counterparts, as mentioned by Dr. Bodiford.



    Again, just in case you missed it, there is FAR MORE to the western method than "free play."

    Its only PART of the training.

    No-way to tell if it was the main focus or not.
    Nobody here has stated that free-play was the "main focus" of the Western arts--all that has been said is that free-play has always been a viewed as a crucial element in those arts.

    Peace,

    David
    Last edited by Nanban Bushi; 3rd August 2004 at 00:09.
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    126
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    cxt,

    Originally posted by cxt
    Nanban

    Ye Olde


    Gotta ask guys what is the purpose of your coming here?

    This is entire website is for Asian arts.

    This forum is CALLED "Koryu" for petes sake.

    And yet here you come to have a "whose art is better" debate.


    Re-read the beginning of this thread (in fact, I'll make it easy for you, since you seem to have such a hard time in the accuracy department):

    Originally posted by Nanban Bushi
    Weapons free-play in classical JMA?
    Did it exist in any form, prior to the 18th or 19th century?


    My original "purpose" in coming here was to inquire about some bogus claims regarding Kodokan judo's history (and you can do a search for that, if you don't believe me).

    After checking out the site (which I personally think is very cool), I decided to ask the question above, regarding free-play in JSA.

    (and in case you are curious--what your doing is NOT new, seems like every 6 months or so someone shows up to push their own training agenda and methods--to show how the koryu are somehow "wrong" and their method is some how "right." and they miss the point of koryu utterly)

    Do you have anyone here logging on to the many western arts forums and give you crap about how western arts have degenerated into useless sport?

    No you don't. I don't know if its better manners or what, but we don't do things like that.


    LOL @ you chastising me about manners...

    Yet here you are wanting to show us all the error of our ways--ie what "I" do is better THAN WHAT YOU DO.

    And yes thats exactly how your coming across.


    Well let me tell you how YOU have come across, Chris.

    You started out calm enough, although you didn't tell me anything in your first post that I didn't already know.

    After that, you became increasingly CONDESCENDING, DISMISSIVE, and now, downright COCKY.

    Why?

    Kinda why the folks here have pretty much ignored you.

    Most folks were polite enough to responde until they realized that what you "really" wanted was to have what my grandfather would call a "pecker contest."

    And that just is not very interesting to most of folks here.


    Though, apparently, it's interesting to you.

    I don't feel that this thread has been "ignored"--on the contrary, there have been some thoughtful responses so far.

    Me, I 'll argue with an echo just for the practice.


    Obviously.

    And I'll shred you, I know as much about western arts, the strength and weakness, as you do.


    Shred away, then.

    I have yet to see your supposedly vast knowledge of the Western arts.

    You have mostly just made a slew of inaccurate generalizations, though you do get credit for at least mentioning folks like Reinhardt, Amberger, and Nadi.

    But I still have to question the apperent need for you guys to show how what YOU do is good and what WE do is bad.


    Show me in this thread where I said what you do is "bad".

    I ASKED A QUESTION pertaining to Japanese weapons arts.

    YOU were the one who then went off on the tangent of trying to prove how supposedly useless sport fencing is.

    Obviously, sparring on its own is useless--there has to be instruction in technique, as well as a monitoring and correction of form, etc.

    However, a lack of free-play is problematic too.

    Both bouting AND drilling are necessary.

    Sounds kinda weak to me.

    Most folks secure in what they do simply don't need to engage in such childish behavior.


    Practice what you preach, bro.

    YOU are the one who has attempted to drag this thread down, and that's pretty clear for everyone to see.

    Peace,

    David
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    126
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Hello Charles,

    Originally posted by charlesl
    I found the thread to be kind of interesting...




    David, in regards to your original question:

    I read this book by this Dave Lowry guy (no, not the hockey guy who plays for the Calgary Flames, though that would be kind of interesting), called "Autumn Lightning" or something like that. In it he kind of talks story about (if I remember right, probably I don't) the start of the Shin Kage school of kenjutsu, and I kind of remember there being some references to freeplay, and I think maybe even the creation of the shinai. It was kind of written as historical fiction or something, but it did sort of imply there was some sort of "freeplay." I don't know if how historically accurate it was, or was even inteded to be. But it may have relevance to what you were asking.

    Probably if you were to ship him a fresh poke sampler set, he'd be willing to discuss the subject with you.

    -Charles
    Thanks for the tip, and thanks for your efforts in trying to keep this discussion civilized.

    Best Regards,

    David
    David Black Mastro


    "The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    1,394
    Likes (received)
    84

    Default

    Nanban

    Seriously sorry that your taking it this way.

    Was not intentional--just trying to give you some idea about my feelings as to having yet ANOTHER "kata vs free sparring" tail chase of a debate.

    Esp since you really did not see fit to respond to a couple of the guys whom also took the time to answer your posts.

    But your angery response should give you some insight as to how I see you at this point---a guy trying to prove what HE DOES IS GOOD AND WHAT WE DO IS BAD.

    If your trying to "gain insight" about judo--why ask about weapons?

    And why not spcifically ASK ABOUT JUDO IN YOUR POST?-funny I prett much read you asking questions about koryu weapons.

    In fact the very thread you started has no mention of judo.

    Question still stands though--why on earth did you bring your whole "I'm bigger than you" debate to a web-site devoted to Japanese arts, specficlly Koryu?

    Addtitional--already answered you--I'll argue with an echo.

    More to the point, do you understand the differnce between "substantive" and "non-subtantive-????

    See, my saying you have to "stay on the strip" as an example of non-reality in matching---your response of "You can step one foot off!"

    Although accurate its just not substantive-- does NOT alter the basically "non-real" nature of the current match structure.

    ie its a non-point.

    Might I also suggest thay very few folks on this forum require YOUR help in understanding western forms of combat--many of us also study western fenceing.

    Its also worth pointing out that I did NOT try to prove that fenceing was "worthless" just makeing it clear that the current method of "free play" was NOT all "moonlight and roses" when it comes to reality training.

    Any reasonably accurate history of the sword will teel you that "free play" WITH OTHER training methods was done.

    How big a part did was "free play" we really don't know form an empicial standpoint.

    If you took it as a personal assult on your art--put yourself in the place of pretty much EVERYONE here that practices a kata bases art--what do YOU think your message is seen as when you start questioning an essential part of our art?

    And from my perspective you did so with much more desingeniousness (sp) than I did.

    Again seriously sorry that have offended you.

    You have my sincere apologies.


    Chris Thomas
    Last edited by cxt; 3rd August 2004 at 01:49.

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •