cxt,
Originally posted by cxt
Nanban
Just curious, in reading over the above, are you answering a queston I directly asked Olde?
Cause that how it looks.
I asked HIM a question, and YOU gave me a point by point response.
Just throwing in my 2 cents--is that a crime?
Man, you seem so big on... drama.
All except the actual name of a couple of classicial rapier schools.
Which you and I both know don't exsist.
There are no "classical rapier schools" that currently exist, but there were certainly quite a few at one time.
There was the North Italian "Bolognese school" of Marozzo, which made use of the cut-and-thrust spada suitable for both military and civilian application (and eventually, the rapier proper was developed). The Southern Italians also had a distinct school, based in the "Kingdom of the Two Sicilies" (ie., Sicily & Naples). There was the "Spanish school" of Carranza, which taught the destreza method. The "German school" was represented by fencing guilds like the Marxbruder and the Luxbruder, and combined the use of native weapons like the bidenhander and the dussack, with the spada of the Italians (which the Germans referred to as a rappier or rappir). The English London Masters of Defence mirrored the Germans, in that they ultimately also adopted the rapier, but nevertheless retained their indigenous weapons too (basket-hilts, quarterstaves, bills, etc).
And FWIW, the Southern Italian (Neopolitan) school still exists, though they of course teach the three modern weapons.
Instead of just "manning up" admitting that they don't you spin the response into a question as to weither or not Koryu kata have changed.
We all know that they no longer exist, Chris. It's not a matter of "manning up", since it's common knowledge.
Again, not really thinking this thu are you?
I think I'm doing just fine, actually.
However, the chronic bluster you have indulged in does nothing to further your cause.
Even if they have--which I admit is possible--they STILL HAVE NOT UTTERLY DISAPEARED as have their western counterparts.
Any way you cut it, we have much more, much better, and more accurate infomation on the Japanese koryu arts than we have on western ones.
I agree.
On some level, the Japanese schools have been preserved.
As to how close the current incarnations of those schools are to the way things were done 400 years ago, however, is open to a great amount of debate.
Certainly, you made it sound as if what is being done in the Koryu schools today is the same as what was being taught to the bushi at the time of the Imjin War.
You claimed:
Originally posted by cxt
That is the main strength of the Japanese methods--the techniques and specifc training methods WERE preserverd.
I'd say that the techniques, and some of the "specific training methods" were preserved.
Certainly, you cannot deny that things are totally different now, in terms of the circumstances surrounding JSA. There's no need for functional sword arts these days.
And that should be clear, even to you.
There's no rival clans to fight.
There's no Mongol Horde to drive off (via the weather or otherwise).
There's no Ming Dynasty China or Joseon Dynasty Korea to attack.
There's no turtleships to attempt to board and/or sink.
There's no Okinawan peasants to keep in line.
Get my drift?
Can you even think of a Medeviael (sp) broadsword school? A real one I mean
Course you can't but then again I didn't start this debate either.
There were a couple of Medieval schools, actually.
The Germans had a distinct school, which scholars usually refer to today as the "Liechtenauer school". The Italians were well represented too, by folks like the formidable teacher from Friuli, Fiore de Liberi.
Again, I REALLY AM sorry that I have offended you.
Yeah, you're just dripping with sincerity at this point...
I will make whatever public apology you feel needed.
Just stop misquoting me.
And answer the kata question.
Peace,
David
Last edited by Nanban Bushi; 3rd August 2004 at 12:11.
David Black Mastro
"The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.