Chris,
Originally posted by cxt
Nanban
But thats my exact point on currrent trends in "free play"
You don't train to defend vs ANY weapon but a copy of the one your useing.
But the fact that the play is comparatively free makes up for that.
More to that point, you didn't have classical rapier guys training vs the flail either.
So thats a non-point.
Come on now, Chris--I think you know better than that!
The rapier (rappir) against the flail (pflegel) may be seen in Jakob Sutor's New Kunstliches Fechtbuch of 1612.
Despite the fact that the rapier was primarily intended as a civilian weapon for use in the duel and personal self-defense, it sometimes had to be used against other weapons (especially in the latter scenario). In addition, rapiers were sometimes taken into battle, although most experts advised against this (see Sir John Smythe's Certain Discourses Military of 1590). Girard Thibault, in his famous Academie de l'espee of 1630, pitted the rapier against the two-handed sword. Luis Pacheco de Narvaez, in his treatise on the destreza from 1600, showed the rapier opposed to the Turkish kilij ("scimitar"). Miguel Perez de Mendoza showed the same thing, in his Resumen de la verdadera destreza de las armas of 1675. In 1686, Francesco Antonio Marcelli showed rapier (spada) vs. saber (sciabla).
This mixing of weapons was probably a carryover from earlier sword traditions, where a variety of military weapons were used against each other. Silver spoke of the "vantages" that various weapons had against each other, Marozzo showed the two-handed sword's utility against polearms, etc.
And, even well into the age of the smallsword, this trend continued. Donald McBane, in his classic Expert Swordman's Companion wrote about how to use the smallsword against the broadsword, the backsword, the shearing sword (spadroon), the long Spanish cup-hilt rapier, etc. He also gave advice on how to use the broadsword and shearing sword against the smallsword. French smallsword masters often gave advice on how to deal with ethnospecific guards, like that of the Italian smallsword, the German smallsword, and the Spanish rapier. In Fencing Familiarized, or, A New Treatise on the Art of the Scotch Broad Sword, Thomas Matthewson pitted the broadsword against the pike and bayonet.
So with all due respect, I'd say you're wrong on that supposed "non-point".
Classical JMA trained in sword vs spear, naginata, chain, various other weapons.
I've seen stuff like that, yes.
More pointedly (yes thats pun) I don't really consider it "free play" when you only train in a heavily regulated enviorment where your oppt MUST strike ONLY specifc targets.
But that's exactly what your doing in the kata, even as described by Renfield and others.
To quote you:
"Your dealing with a specific set of moves, which is a far cry from dealing with an oppt where you have no idea what attack he is going to launch"
Ok, I'll bite, so standing on the strip, facing an oppnt I have NO idea what he goign to do?
Or would it more accurate to say that I know for a fact that ther are any number of things he WON'T DO.
He is NOT going to stab me in the face.
Only if it's foil.
I know he or she he is NOT going to grab my wrist, trip me and then stab me.
I know he is NOT going to stab me in the calf or the groin.
I know he is NOT going "tie me up" and punch me in the face with the guard.
I know they will not pull a dagger.
I know he he or she is going to fight me pretty much like I am going to fight him.
He will be trying to hit the same limited number of target areas I will aiming for.
Use the foil in pretty much the same manner and follow the pretty much the same rules and behaviors as I do.
And Amberger works (with other) are pretty quick to both illustrate this and to show how that can be deadly.
I just don't see that as being "really" free play.
It's certainly still more "free" than the kata on a certain level, IMO.
Thus I don't think its an accurate "apples to apples" way to compare and contrast them.
This IS NOT some indictemnt of western methods.
Likewise, I am not condemning Japanese methods.
No method is perfect, each devloped due to specifc enviroments and for specific reasons.
Agreed--and I must say that I do at least have a better understanding of kata as it applies to JSA, than I ever have before.
Peace,
David
Last edited by Nanban Bushi; 5th August 2004 at 11:36.
David Black Mastro
"The Japanese are the most warlike people in this part of the world. They have artillery and many arquebuses and lances. They use defensive armor for the body, made of iron, which they have owing to the subtlety of the Portuguese, who have displayed that trait to the injury of their own souls." --Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa, commenting on well-equipped wako in the Philippines, 1582.