Information on training drills and exercises of the Russian System

[Bri Thai]

I just viewed the clips again - in detail.

I'd like to see how it works on someone who either (a) doesn't move like they're in a slow motion action replay or (b) doesn't throw themself to the floor.

[bukweetz]

Hi Jay,


Thanks for replying to my post. I am always interested to hear the views of others, anyway, by way of a reply:-

You said:-

You incorrectly assume that Systema doesn't train in this manner. Woops...actually, we don't...no target mitts or bit strike pads needed.

I find it difficult to belive that you think you generate impact power without actually hitting something, or indeed each other.
How do you know that you can hit hard or well?

the amount of raw, physical, commited violence that takes place in RMA training is like nothing I've ever come across, as well as being softer and slower than the Taiji classes I took in college. These things are trained on...intently.

Is this the same raw commited violence shown in the clips? including the ones of Vlad? If this is the case then you have a strange view of what raw violence is.

Iain Phillips
http://groups.msn.com/EXPLOSIVESELFD...EMSTANNESGROUP

[Paul Genge]

Iain,

Try being surrounded by 50 or so people then every body starts hitting, kicking, pushing and tripping each other. For this no pads are worn.

As a variation for you if this is not challenging enough. Take the same 50 or so people and lay on the floor amongst them. They then start fighting with each other and for good measure kick and tread on you and anyone else on the floor. Your job is to survive, get to your feet and fight.

There are many other variations on this theme. Being surrounded by a bunch of punch bags that do not get scared about being hit is not fighting. It is a good CV work out using some skills that may be useful in a fight, but please do not delude yourself that it is the real thing. I have been in the real thing. I know what works. The training drills in the system do.

Paul Genge

[bukweetz]

Hi Paul,

You said:-


Try being surrounded by 50 or so people then every body starts hitting, kicking, pushing and tripping each other. For this no pads are worn.

Is this a system training drill or a hypothetical situation?

Not sure why you are making this comment. Obviously i wouldn't want to try this situation out. I would doubt that very many people have as it's unlikely that they would survive, or that they could be taught a system which would enable them to survive such horrendous odds.


As a variation for you if this is not challenging enough. Take the same 50 or so people and lay on the floor amongst them. They then start fighting with each other and for good measure kick and tread on you and anyone else on the floor. Your job is to survive, get to your feet and fight.

There are many other variations on this theme. Being surrounded by a bunch of punch bags that do not get scared about being hit is not fighting. It is a good CV work out using some skills that may be useful in a fight, but please do not delude yourself that it is the real thing. I have been in the real thing. I know what works. The training drills in the system do.


I have never had people being scared of being hit when we have done this drill, NEVER. It is a good CV workout, and it DOES replicate the very few skills that you will need in a fight i.e. a couple of good strikes, and the ability to keep going, and development of aggression in a tight spot. I KNOW it's not the real thing, it just tends to de-bunk the idea that lots of fancy techniques are possible in tense situations, and on non-compliant opponents.

It was just food for thought, rather than a dig at you and the system.

cheers

Iain Phillips

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by bukweetz
Hi Jay,


Thanks for replying to my post. I am always interested to hear the views of others, anyway, by way of a reply:-

You said:-

You incorrectly assume that Systema doesn't train in this manner. Woops...actually, we don't...no target mitts or bit strike pads needed.

I find it difficult to belive that you think you generate impact power without actually hitting something, or indeed each other.
How do you know that you can hit hard or well?

the amount of raw, physical, commited violence that takes place in RMA training is like nothing I've ever come across, as well as being softer and slower than the Taiji classes I took in college. These things are trained on...intently.

Is this the same raw commited violence shown in the clips? including the ones of Vlad? If this is the case then you have a strange view of what raw violence is.

Iain Phillips
http://groups.msn.com/EXPLOSIVESELFD...EMSTANNESGROUP

Whoa...here we go with that reading things that aren't there again. Where did I say that we never hit things? I said we didn't need to use target mitts and the like...we hit people. We hit people hard.

No...and if you re-read the exact quote that you pasted of mine, you will see something that apparently was skated over, conveniently enough, which was the following:

"...as well as being softer and slower than the Taiji classes I took in college."

As a variation for you if this is not challenging enough. Take the same 50 or so people and lay on the floor amongst them. They then start fighting with each other and for good measure kick and tread on you and anyone else on the floor. Your job is to survive, get to your feet and fight.

Again, Iain, you're grossly assuming (see the pattern? You open your mouth, we then say, "We do that"...). I personally have done that training drill at Vlad seminars. There might not have been 50 people in the room at the time, but 30 worked pretty well. A handful of folks in the heart of the cluster...bit banged up, but learned a ton.

[Bri Thai]

I struggle with this concept. I too have done drils whilst surrounded by people etc. But I have also trained my impact power on bags and pads etc. The two develop different attributes.

And hitting people? I've done that too....... but it only had an effect because of the impact training.

This is a bit like a triathlete saying "who needs to swim when I run and cycle so well".

[Jay Bell]

If I'm going to be hitting a person, then hitting a person in training makes a great deal more sense...then a bag. The response in the person's body dictates what occurs at the next step...and three steps from now. If you don't have an understanding of how the body moves, reacts and triggers when being struck, then that approach is impossible.

I studied "American'ed-down" Kenpo for a few years in college. Full of bag training and that type of work, very little on the human body. Ironically, nobody had a real strong understanding of how a perticular strike would cause a body to move, react and whatnot. Even the techniques that were trained didn't piece together realistically. Go figure.

[budoboy]

I asked Jim King (well known Systema guy and ex-US Army Ranger) if he ever used a heavy bag. His reply was yes, to do squats with :-)

I've practiced hitting makiwara, trees, walls, focus mitts, heavy bags and people. Although I like hitting focus mitts I prefer to hit people. I learn a whole lot more about martial arts and I don't get tense.

In my experience large striking pads and heavy bags give you the wrong sort of feedback. If I hit a large striking pad I feel like I'm hitting a marshmallow. If I hit a heavy bag very hard I feel tense and static (not good for learning to fight) and if I hit with alot of power I actually damage my body (pulled muscles in my back usually).

I think Bri Tai has some good points about overly compliant partners. The reason many become compliant is because a fear of getting hurt. After throwing a few hard and fast punches and eating a fist or kick at full speed, people (normal ones) have a tendency to slow things down and receive the hits in a manner that won't incapacitate them. This can be good and bad.

Occasionally you need people in class to challenge you. I have a student or two who aren't afraid of the consequences and will try to knock my block off. I take my occasional licks but when I get them (some times with a no-touch technique even :-) it is something really special. I know I have things correct at that point.

Jeff Sherwin

[Bri Thai]

I hit pretty hard, but am hardly world class. But even I reckon that I would run out of training partners pretty quick if I trained impact on them instead of pads and bags.

Either the classes are bloodbaths (which I doubt) or the "hitting" is modified and diluted to the extent that it is worthless.

Or am I missing something?

[Jay Bell]

You're missing something.

We spend an incredible amount of time on how to deal with impact from blows and other types of input. This isn't 'tough guy' resistance towards the impact, but allowing the portion of the body being hit to flow and dispurse the impact.

[Bri Thai]

Maybe so. Why don't world class boxers come for lessons?

And what about learning to dish it out? Been hit in the throat recently?

[Jay Bell]

Floyd Brown, former International Heavyweight Thai Boxing Federation Champion and European Heavyweight World Kickboxing Association Chamption, showed up for one of Mikhail's seminars in the U.K...and got worked over thoroughly.

On the other end, we had a Russian professional boxer come and watch training a few times...who wasn't impressed at all. He couldn't understand the power generation and it was so different from everything he'd been taught as "right" that he couldn't get his brain around it. He felt it...loved the power that came from it, but just couldn't devote going back to "Square 1" all over again.

The clips were here, but the links seem to be having problems:

http://www.systemauk.com/video2.htm

We learn dishing it out as well. And yes, actually, throat shots are pretty common in training.

[Bri Thai]

Really? Do you soak up the power by mysterious means, or is there an undertaker always on hand?

[Paul Genge]

Mechanics, breathing, relaxation, correct body form and movement.

Paul Genge

[Bri Thai]

Lets forget the red marker pen. I did disagree about slashing supposedly not being dangerous, but there you go.

How about I come and Axe Hand you in the throat? You can use your mechanics and breathing etc then.......

Only joking mate. I don't fancy prison food.

We are going round in circles. I haven't seen anything to indicate that Systema is for me, nor would I recommend it to anyone. But we're all different so maybe it does work for you.