is Okinawan different than Japanesse??

[seskoad]

I have not read a book about history of Okinawa. But some books mention little bit about it. Last week I went to borders bookstore and have a look on the bible of karate:bubishi. It says that okinawan was conquered by one of the clan that ran away from Tokugawa Clan. Systematically (I guess), the island was not under either shogun or emperor of Japan until the Meiji Restoration. I forgot the name of clan. Is it Satsuma clan? And before that there was Ryukyu Kingdom governed the island.

After WWII the island was under control of US forces until 1972 (???). That means they can also get their independent when US forces return the power to Japan (if they want). My questions are:

- If you are Okinawan, don't you want to be seperated or get independent?

- is the culture really different than japanesse?

- From the same book (bible of karate), also says that okinawan also had their own martial arts and influenced by Chinesse Boxing, and developed as today what we call Karate. But was there any influence of Japanese martial art system on that development?

- If I am not mistaken, Gichin Funakoshi is Okinawan. But in his book, he said that he's from samurai family. Was there any samurai caste in Okinawan during edo period (before and after)??

thanks and again my apology if my english is not really understandable.

[Blackwood]

- From the same book (bible of karate), also says that okinawan also had their own martial arts and influenced by Chinesse Boxing, and developed as today what we call Karate. But was there any influence of Japanese martial art system on that development?

I'm sure there was some influence, but it appears to be pretty minor. For many centuries Okinawa was a tributary of China. But the primary claim to fame was the trading between the many countries and islands in SE Asia. Given the number of Chinese present on the island, and the constant interchange of representatives between the two countries, I would say that Chinese influence was much higher than Japanese.

In today's society, the system of ranking and different colored obi, as well as the dogi, came from the Japanese systems.

- If I am not mistaken, Gichin Funakoshi is Okinawan. But in his book, he said that he's from samurai family. Was there any samurai caste in Okinawan during edo period (before and after)??

It is my understanding that there were Samurai in Okinawa. The structure of the society appears to be similar to that of Japan in many ways. The Japanese occupation forces stripped them of much of their power and weapons. There are some that feel that karate was greatly furthered in its development by these higher class individuals once they lost the right to use swords.

And in my experience, most of the Okinawans that I have met will correct you if you refer to them as Japanese rather than Okinawan. It is also my understanding that they do have a number of different dialects. I have not discussed the political desires related to independance with any of them.

[Jock Armstrong]

The Shimazu clan from Satsuma in Kyushu were given permission to mount an invasion of the Ryukyu islands by Ieyasu Tokugawa, mainly because he wanted all those embittered samurai [the Shimazu had opposed the Tokugawa in the war that resulted in their being made shoguns] busy somewhere else. That Okinawa was a main link to trade with China and the source of a lot of funds was another reason. Okinawan culture is different to mainland Japanese, though influenced by it. Japanese is taught in school and the old Okinawan dialect/ language is getting scarce.One example I heard of just how different from Japanese;
arm conditioning- Japanese; ude tanren
Okinawan; muchimi no chan chan

Probably most Okinawans would say the Japanese now.
Interesting aside- Okinawan music and musicians are very different to the mainland , quite melodic and sometimes haunting. An inordinate amount of popular singers in Japan are from Okinawa, Amuro Namie for one....

[Jock Armstrong]

Men of the bushi or warrior class were referred to as "peichin". Some of the class structure resembles the Japanese while other parts owe more to China or even SE Asia. Hope this helps.

[Exorcist_Fist]

Amuro Namie is a quarter Italian, thank you.

[Kimpatsu]

Is English different from American?
All dialects within the UK differ from each other, like all dialects within the US differ from each other.
However, there is no such thing as "different than". Things are different from each other; separation of concept is, after all, the goal here.
Neither a berk nor a wanker, but dead on,

[Blackwood]

Leave it to Tony to bring the finer parts of the English language to a non-native speaker's attention!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Blackwood
Leave it to Tony to bring the finer parts of the English language to a non-native speaker's attention!

Non-native speaker?
Of course, you colonials don't speak the Queen's English, but...

[Exorcist_Fist]

Do the variations of English, at least within the US, qualify as dialects? I was under the impression they do not. Perhaps within the british isles the variation is great enough to justify calling them dialects?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Silent Dan
Do the variations of English, at least within the US, qualify as dialects? I was under the impression they do not. Perhaps within the british isles the variation is great enough to justify calling them dialects?

The various uses of English within the USA very much count as dialects. Do you think that a New Yorker and a Louisianan speak the same way? Or a Texan and a Californian? These are very much dialects; or, if you prefer, they are all corruptions of the Queen's English. But then again, you colonials can't even spell correctly...

[Matt Molloy]

Originally posted by Silent Dan
Perhaps within the british isles the variation is great enough to justify calling them dialects?

Aye lad. 'appen.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
These are very much dialects; or, if you prefer, they are all corruptions of the Queen's English.

Its not the "Queen's English." It belongs to the people.

Till the revolution,

Matt.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Matt Molloy
Its not the "Queen's English." It belongs to the people.
Till the revolution,
Matt.

As a republican. Matt, I wholeheartedly approve of the revolution, but at the same time, I oppose the dumbing-down, sheer Communism of the colonials.
FYI, Mark Twain said something similar: "English does not belong to the Queen; it is a joint-stock company, and Americans own most of the shares."
Twain (Samuel Clements) was, however; wrong; the majority of native English speakers are not American, they are Indian (has the US forgotten the Raj so quickly?), and India uses British English.
So that communist argument goes out of the window...

[Matt Molloy]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
As a republican. Matt, I wholeheartedly approve of the revolution, but at the same time, I oppose the dumbing-down, sheer Communism of the colonials.

Cool. Do you mean to say "The dumbed-down Communism of the colonials." as otherwise I'm not sure that I understand you?

I was aware of the Mark Twain comment and as someone who is part Indian I couldn't help but be aware of the after-effects of British Imperialism in that part of the globe.

Cheers,

Matt.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Matt Molloy
Cool. Do you mean to say "The dumbed-down Communism of the colonials." as otherwise I'm not sure that I understand you?

I was aware of the Mark Twain comment and as someone who is part Indian I couldn't help but be aware of the after-effects of British Imperialism in that part of the globe.

Cheers,

Matt.

No, I stand by what I said. See my earlier polemics as to why colonial English is Communist, and a far cry from the language of us freedom-loving Brits.
Err...


BTW, you do see why Twain was wrong?

[Matt Molloy]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
No, I stand by what I said. See my earlier polemics as to why colonial English is Communist, and a far cry from the language of us freedom-loving Brits.
Err...


BTW, you do see why Twain was wrong?

I fear that I use Communist in a different way to yourself but I will endeavour to find your definition.

I thought that I'd said that I understood why Twain was wrong, India being the most populous nation on the planet and the administrative language being English and all. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Cheers,

Matt.