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Thread: ryu-ha applications

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    Default ryu-ha applications

    Just a random question, but has anyone out there who has attained a competent level in takamatsuden arts, and had to use there arts in a modern day practical setting?
    Which concepts from the Traditional ryu-ha kata were successful? which were not? Are there any principles which relate to historic elements of the past and weren’t of any ‘’use to yourself’’ in that particular incidence??
    No Flames or ego boasting please just a discussion about real life incidences of traditional principle applications.

    Thanks you very much
    Paul Greaves
    ''Skill is aquired via sweat equity''

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    Hello Paul,

    I have used the various techniques of Ninpo numerous times in real life actual incounters. I have been a police officer for 15 years and I am currently assisgned to a Tactical Rescue Unit and operate as 2IC and have done this for the past 9 years of my policing carreer. I am usually designated the hands free person because they require someone that control an individual with minimal force. I have also been swarmed by a large crowd and managed to escape while throwing numerous people off me. As to one technique used, that is really hard to say, there are too many to count. I am partial to Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu Jujutsu because of the many contoling techniques.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
    Genbukan Mugen Dojo
    Troy Wideman

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    I started training in the Takamatsuden arts in 1985 and during that time have attended many seminars with both the Japanese and Westerners. Up until 1995 I trained very traditionally, learning the Kata and techniques etc as they were in the manuals and believed stupidly that I was very good.
    After 1995 I became an arresting officer for a leading store and in one year carried out over 200 arrests, some of which became violent, following this I joined the police force and again met people who wanted to cause me harm.I have therefore been in situations where my life and safety was in
    jepordy and had to rely on techniques to stop myself getting hurt and effect an arrest.
    I found that in some cases Ninjutsu as I was teaching it was not effective 100% of the time. There is a huge difference between practicing a traditional form and the real thing.
    During an arrest whilst as a police officer I grabbed a male to throw him to the floor with Osotonage. This male reach forward with his head and bit into my shoulder nearly taking a chunk out of my arm. A few months ago myself and my coleague sprayed a male with incapacitant spray. He was then batoned several times and knee strikes were applied. Although I managed to avoid all of this males strikes even though my coleague who did not study martial arts was injured I still found it extremely hard to wrestle this male to the ground. The reason?= 8 pints of Guiness and crack cocainne.
    This male was impervious to pain.
    We all train in the Dojo learning our various joint locks, strikes and other techniques but how real are they.
    Are you looking at defending against upper cuts, jabs, head butts, broken bottles, screw drivers, hypodermic syringes, or just Jodan Tsuki done traditional Japanese style.
    Visit a local hospital on a Friday night and asked the peole there how they were attacked. I can tell you now, they will not say "well this chap took up Ichimonji No Kamae and threw a Jodan Tsuki" or "This male pulled a knife, stepped back into Seigan No Kamae with the knife at his waist and with a kiai stepped forward to delive a chudan tsuki" No, What their more likely to say is that they were in the night club when a male approached and without warning slammed a broken bottle in the side of their face.
    A few years ago I radically changed the way i trained in Ninjutsu.
    I still practiced the kata but looked at how they could be used against the type of attacks used in todays society. I balanced tis with a fitness programme as i believe that fitness is vital to the martial artist regardless of how good you are. fighting in a real situation for 30 seconds is like running 5 miles. I also strike pads, do bag work and with my students set up self defence scenarios etc.
    From my point of view there is nothing wrong with Ninjutsu just the way we train in it.

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    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    From my point of view there is nothing wrong with Ninjutsu just the way we train in it.
    Totally agree.

    Over the twenty years I've been training, there haven't been many incidents; but there have been a few in the course of my protective services work; ditto with my wife, who's a personal protection specialist as well. With the number of students cycling through the dojo over the years, a lot of them have had experiences of having to use their training in various ways, and no one has been injured even though two instances involved drawn firearms. (In one of those, a student who was working uniformed armed security in a club got swarmed by a ratpack of little Vietnamese guys, during the course of which his Glock sort of migrated out of his holster and he wasn't aware of it until it was pointed at him. We work a lot on weapon disarms and weapon retention -- they're part of the art, and they work just as well with handguns and long guns as they do with swords and polearms if you spend some time working on them with modern weaponry and situations -- and he instantly took it back from the guy, whereupon the attackers immediately un-swarmed.)

    Most often, though, my students tell me how they were able to detect and avoid or neutralize potentially dangerous situations without having to fight -- that happens FAR more often than actual physical encounters.
    One who claims to have thoroughly learned his master's techniques while disregarding his master's teaching, relying instead on his own talents, is worse than a fool.

    -- Yamaoka Tesshu

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    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    The reason?= 8 pints of Guiness and crack cocainne.
    This male was impervious to pain.
    This is an interesting point, Mr. Arthur. How do you, or anyone else here train for a situation where the bad guy may have an extremely high pain tolerance? I know there are some locks that should make even a crack head cry “uncle”, but not someone on PCP. Short of having any available external weapons, which I understand is rarely the case, how do you get the bad guy down and keep him down in these situations?
    Chris Neville

    If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

    -Sun Tzu

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    In the Bujinkan the "getting him down" part is done via a concept referred to as kuzushi or "taking balance". He may have superior strength, speed, imperviousness to pain, or all of those; but if he's off-balance none of them do him any good. Takedowns and throws may also be done in such a way that he tends to break or tear things in the process, which goes a long way toward keeping him down.

    As for "keeping him down", most of our locks and immobilizations don't depend on pain (even though they may often hurt like hell!) for their effect; rather, force is applied along axes which lock up the skeletal structure in directions his muscles can't resist against.

    Playing soccer with his head once he goes down can also be highly effective in keeping him there, but may not be either legally or morally justified depending on the situation.
    One who claims to have thoroughly learned his master's techniques while disregarding his master's teaching, relying instead on his own talents, is worse than a fool.

    -- Yamaoka Tesshu

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    Mr. Seago,

    I may have not been clear in what I was asking. I’ll try again. My understanding is that these types of skills work on an opponent that has the “normal” Biomechanical responses to these techniques, but I have heard of cases where police officers have shot a person on PCP enough times to see through his chest, and he kept coming forward. A person under these conditions, may not have the typical muscle reactions during a lock, or respond to the tearing of tendons, muscles or the breaking of bone, but at the same time may display “super” human strength. Do you believe in your opinion, that the skills you referred to would be enough to stop a person on such a strong drug, or would something different have to be done, if anything at all could be done?
    Chris Neville

    If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

    -Sun Tzu

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    Smile

    I think the thing to realize is that there isn't a technique or training method that is a %100. It usually boils down to the skill of the individual, doesn't mean the technique is faulty but maybe the way it was applied.
    I have dealt with numerous individuals on PCP etc, as Dale stated, if your technique relys on strength you will loose. It is more important to have a good position and base, apply the proper leverage, breaking the persons kazushi and take him or her down. However, now in saying that, I have applied what I felt was perfect techniques on individual high on drugs and watched them shrug off the effects. The only technique that is pretty well sure to work, if you can get it on, is a shime (choke). 2nd to that is using the TASER, of course these are less lethal options.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
    Troy Wideman

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    Default 2 Cents

    Hi Chris,

    I know you directed this at Dale, but perhaps this'll tide you over till he's got a chance to respond.

    One of the main problems that Officer's run into when utilizing the baton is that their training with it is extremely limited. While an Officer is required to shoot regularly (( which is good )), the only hand-to-hand training they're required to take is what they receive in the Police Academy. In the case of the Baton, PR-24, OPN, ASP, etc Officer's are required to work with these only a total of one 8 hr period per year or 16 hrs if you want to be the instuctor.

    While Officer's are taught where to strike with the Baton, they aren't taught how to utilize them for grappling purposes. So while the related problem of drug enhancement or alcohol can help reduce the pain a Suspect feels...this has no bearing upon their structure.

    Officer's are generally taught to strike twice with the Baton & then to back off and assess whether the suspect will now comply with their commands. A perfect example of this was when Police Officer's utilized the very tape that had appeared on the news detailing the Rodney King beating as to why they continued (( whether you agree with this incident or not...their defense pointed to the officers strikes followed by Rodney's continued advancement towards the officers and trying to get up again as justification for their continued striking )).

    In Bujinkan or for that matter Genbukan & Jinenkan, practioners are not taught merely to strike but how to close and grapple with the baton ( Hanbo ). In our case, the initial blows are used to close distance and then insert the baton so as to lock up an opponents skeletal structure. This both provides the leverage to drive and hold them down. In these cases the suspect is not merely held in place by the practioner's technique or strength, but their own body weight adds further to the lock..and in the cases where they resist, their own strength drives the Baton against their pressure points, joints, bones etc even harder.

    I've taught these techniques to several San Jose Police Officers and a couple in Puerto Rico. All were intrigued as these were applications that they had never seen or encountered before. So the short answer would be...even if the suspect is enhanced, you would still be able to take them down.

    Eric Bookin

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    Wink PCP pumped attackers.

    I would have to say that the gravity of your response should be relative to your level of danger.

    If i had an encounter with someone who was obviously on serious drugs I would let the situation dictate my level of response. If I can get out verbaly awesome, if not then a man's got to do what a man's got to do

    If you are sure that your life is in REAL danger, then it's better being charged with assault then dead.

    Also, if you have a good feeling for the way your tools must be used then that is all you need. Your take ori will have that crushing power behind it. Your strikes will be thrown to break their targets. You must also realize that it's not PRIDE and anything goes.

    Your greatest tools in a situation like that are your confidence in your training and more importantly your mind.

    The techniques are not what get the job done, it is YOURSELF

    Joel Leduc

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    Default v interesting

    sorry for the delay in replying, home computer probs!
    I agree very much with what your all saying, my understanding of this is
    a) you have to learn waza properly and completly until it becomes a part of you
    b) do a some free training so as to be able to apply waza in high stress/variable situations under progressive resistance etc
    c) that jodan tski etc gives you very pure body mechanics so as to help you start to see about body placements/concepts which gives you an amazing base to develop skills against more modern attacks but you have to train against fast hook's etc if you want to be able to deal with them.

    Very intersting point about Tagi yoshin Ryu, along with shinden fudo is one of my favourite ryu to study.
    luckily i have only had a few minor incidences to deal with which all went well, but i realised that if you dont train hard with spirit it aint gonna work!
    thanks for all the replys, any good drills for randori type exercises to develop this out there??
    Paul Greaves
    ''Skill is aquired via sweat equity''

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    Interesting thread,

    I have been involved in the past in some dangerous situation and was able to handle them accordingly with no injury on my behalf. Further I have and still teaching several students who are/were members of different tactical teams one being in Toronto that have applied successful techniques to restrain violent individuals.

    I also tend to agree with Troy that it all boils down to the individual skill, spirit and experience. If the individual is scared he will most likely perform poorly.

    Real situation are not fixed therefore it is difficult to say what works and what doesn't all the time.

    I have spoken to several Masters in the past that had real life experience and all have replied with the same answer "It depends on the situation".


    Regards,
    Eduard Divantman
    bufuikan@bufuikan.com
    www.bufuikan.com

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    I was a bounty hunter and bodyguard back in the 90's and worked with a couple people who had high pain tolerance for various reasons.

    My understanding is that these types of skills work on an opponent that has the “normal” Biomechanical responses to these techniques, but I have heard of cases where police officers have shot a person on PCP enough times to see through his chest, and he kept coming forward.
    I may be mis-using the word, but I take biomechanical to mean how the bones and muscles work together to make the body move. By this definition, it is very effective to subvert your agressors biomechanics. Bullets don't consistently do this because they don't particularly affect the muscle or skeletal structure of the person. They depend on indescriminmntly destroying organ, nerve, muscle, bone, etc until the person can't move. Most people are trained to shoot center of mass where there is quite a bit of biomechanical redundancy.(The torso is big and has quite a few redundant muscles... spine is in back where it has a lot of mass blocking bullets from hitting it) A normal person will often give up long before he is incapable of fighting. A person on certain drugs, or who is just really mentally tough, won't give up until the bullets destroy enough that he can't move, which is often quite a bit.

    rather, force is applied along axes which lock up the skeletal structure in directions his muscles can't resist against.
    Regardless of how strong or how much drugs an aggressor is using, if his spine is seriously out of vertical alignment, he will have a really hard time moving against you. Many of the Bujinkan techniques are designed to do just that. The purpose of most locks is to put the spine in this position, not to cause the ancillary pain that often accompanies it. That being said, in the dojo people get used to cooperating with having their spine misaligned, whereas in a fight the aggressor often won't unless you are really rough or really subtle about it.

    I used to work for a company that trained tactical teams, and at close range, it is much more effective to knock an aggressor down, controlling his spinal structure the entire time, than it is to shoot him and wonder what he'll do before he is incapacitated.

    I'm Polish and I haven't quite figured out the quote functionality. Please feel free to submit advice.

    Mike Sneen
    San Diego Bujinkan

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    Originally posted by msneen
    Regardless of how strong or how much drugs an aggressor is using, if his spine is seriously out of vertical alignment, he will have a really hard time moving against you. Many of the Bujinkan techniques are designed to do just that. The purpose of most locks is to put the spine in this position, not to cause the ancillary pain that often accompanies it. That being said, in the dojo people get used to cooperating with having their spine misaligned, whereas in a fight the aggressor often won't unless you are really rough or really subtle about it.

    I used to work for a company that trained tactical teams, and at close range, it is much more effective to knock an aggressor down, controlling his spinal structure the entire time, than it is to shoot him and wonder what he'll do before he is incapacitated.
    I'd agree with all of that.

    BTW, for a good example of the "subtle" approach, see this example of something involving my wife (then 6th dan, currently 7th) in June of last year.
    One who claims to have thoroughly learned his master's techniques while disregarding his master's teaching, relying instead on his own talents, is worse than a fool.

    -- Yamaoka Tesshu

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    I haven’t and hopefully never will have a confrontation with anyone on these types of drugs. It is wonderful that you all could share your experiences. After reading Mr. Arthur’s original post and remembering some episodes of “Cops”, I became concerned from police responses, that perhaps some drugs gave people “super” strength, etc., and could render martial arts training useless. It appears from the responses that police respond according to their standard operating procedure, and not as a response to the increased capabilities of the perpetrator. That is a relief.

    Arigato Gozaimasu
    Chris Neville

    If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

    -Sun Tzu

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