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Thread: 1st Dutch Shinkage ryu iaido seminar

  1. #1
    Okashira Guest

    Default 1st Dutch Shinkage ryu iaido seminar

    Hello everyone,
    I will be attending the 1st Dutch Shinkage ryu iaido seminar in Rotterdam in 9-10th of October.
    I was wondering if any e-budoka will be attending that aswell.

    P.S.:For more information visit www.yushinkan.com

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    I will not attend, as I am a "Shinden guy" but as I took a quick glance at your profile, I noticed that you do the different arts of EKF, and Shinkage ryu as well.
    Thats not bad, how is the situation in Greece on the development of these arts, are there many clubs doing iai, jo and kendo troughout Greece, or is it only in the capital?
    Sorry about the sidetrack, just curious.
    Roar Ulvestad

  3. #3
    Okashira Guest

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    The EOKIN (Greek Federetion of Kendo Iaido Naginata) has 14 dojos all over Greece and that is very good because they are litteraly all over and not centered in Athens.
    Concerning Iai, the ryus that go around are Muso Shinden ryu, I think Eishin ryu, and we are building a groups of Yagyu Shinkage ryu.
    Also I 've heard of a guy teaching Kashima ryu, but have no personal experience of that (I will probably go check him out this fall).

    Kendo unfortunatly isn't very popular,yet.

    As for Jodo, we will be having a big seminar in the end of November in Thessaloniki, where a German high ranking guy in Muso Shinden will come (I don't know his name).

  4. #4
    Okashira Guest

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    Arrow Thanks

    Thank you for sharing the pictures.

    I was not able to attend due to financial constraints.

    I did have the opportunity to train with Matsuoka-s. last year in November in Jersey City (NJ), which was a great seminar, and I hope to get to Paris next Spring for the annual seminar.
    Raymond Sosnowski

    "Setsunintoh, Katsuninken, Shinmyohken."

  6. #6
    Okashira Guest

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    The Paris Seminar will take place the 9th and 10th of april I think.

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    A quick question:

    When you say "Shinkage Ryu Iaido", are you referring to Yagyu Seigo Ryu Battojutsu or something else?

    Thanks.
    Earl Hartman

  8. #8
    Okashira Guest

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    It has more to do with the owari line of Yagyu Shinkage ryu (and maybe Yagyu Seigo Ryu?)than seigan ryu.
    in http://www.yushinkan.com
    and especially in http://www.yushinkan.com/UK/pages/ukshinka.html
    you can find more complete information.

  9. #9
    Okashira Guest

    Unhappy

    ...than seigan ryu...
    Sorry, I misread your post

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    Yes, I read the page to which you referred me, and I found it very confusing. AFAIK, the only iai (battoujutsu) practiced within Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is Yagyu Seigo Ryu (not Seigan Ryu). I have never heard of anything called "Shinkage Ryu Iaido", which is why I asked the question.

    I have trained in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu (MJER) and have seen a lot of Muso Shinden Ryu (MSR) and ZNKR Seitei iai. I have also seen a certain amount of Seigo Ryu battojutsu. It is markedly different from the Jikiden/Muso Shinden/seitei family of iai, which share a close relationship (Nakayama Hakudo developed MSR from the Shimomura-ha of MJER, and ZNKR seitei iai was developed from forms of MJER and MSR). So they are very similar in a lot of their basics. Yagyu Seigo Ryu, on the other hand, is quite distinct and very recognizable.

    So, essentially, I was wondering if "Shinkage Ryu Iaido" is so-called to make Yagyu Seigo Ryu battoujutsu a little more familiar to people who are used to modern iaido nomenclature, or if it is a form synthesized from elements of Seigo Ryu and MJER/MSR as the text on the Yushinkan website seems to indicate:

    Practitioners of Muso Shinden ryu iai are actually quite familiar with Yagyu Shinkage ryu iaido. Five basic techniques from the Omori ryu (the alleged saya no uchi batto gohon), which can be recognised since the beginning of the twentieth century in the shoden of the Muso Shinden and Jikiden Eishin iaido, are developed by a teacher of the ninth headmaster (Hayashi Rokudayu Morimasa - himself a swordsman of the Shinkage Itto ryu), by the name of Omori Rokuzaemon Masamitsu. This Masamitsu was originally inspired by the Yagyu Shinkage ryu and added the way of sitting in seiza from the samurai etiquette in the Ogasawara style, which is common in Shinkage ryu iaido, to the classical iai, which had begun at the end of the sixteenth century with Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu. In Nakayama Hakudo Hiromichi's education, too, who is the founder of Muso Shinden ryu iaido as we know it today, traces of Shinkage ryu can be found.

    Also, I have never heard of "Shinkage Itto Ryu". Do you have any informaion on this style?
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 12th October 2004 at 20:52.
    Earl Hartman

  11. #11
    Okashira Guest

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    Hi,
    for the text in italics I have nothing to say as I have been practicing Iaido a fairly short time, and have experience only in seitei and shinkage ryu iaido.

    As to why it is called shinkage ryu iaido and not seigo ryu iaido I think the story goes that, prior to the WW2 the headmaster of yagyu shinkage ryu (Kenjutsu) was asked whether shinkage ryu had any iai in its curucullum and the headmaster deceided to add seigo ryu to shinkage ryu.

    I had a text somewhere explaining all that I think, when I find it I will post it.

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    OK, thanks.

    If you can find out something about "Shinkage Itto Ryu" also, I would appreciate it.
    Earl Hartman

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    Yagyu Seigo Ryu was originally put together by a man named Nagaoka Fusashige... Nagaoka Sensei was employed, if the word is applicable to the social structure of the time, by Owari han as a scholar of Shinkage Ryu and as an assistant to the Yagyu family. He was well trained in Shinkage ryu, and also learned Seigo-ryu Yawara-jutsu through his own family. Seigo-ryu was also patronized by the Owari han government. Nagaoka sensei took the iai or battou portion of Seigo-ryu and rearranged things a bit to more clearly express the principles of Shinkage Ryu. Thus, Yagyu Seigo-ryu was born.
    The practice of Yagyu Seigo-ryu did not however continue unbroken to the present day. We don't know when exactly it stopped being practiced, but the current headmaster of (Yagyu) Shinkage Ryu, Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei, says that his grandfather did not do the battou...
    As Okashira said, Gencho Sensei was asked if there was any iai in Shinkage Ryu... and the answer was no... but he did some research and revived Yagyu Seigo Ryu.
    Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei learned Yagyu Seigo Ryu from his father as a child...
    I should say, that this isn't quite the same thing as someone making something up out of whole cloth, or trying to do something entirely new by reading about it in a book. Yagyu Seigo Ryu is meant to express the principles of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, and as someone with a masterful understanding of those principles, Gencho sensei was simply using the battou forms as another means of expression.
    That being said, I don't think that you can actually learn Shinkage Ryu simply by doing the battou forms. If your translate backwards, it just does't work. The core principles of Shinkage Ryu, Katsujinken and Juumonjigatchi, require the interaction of two people to be practiced, expressed and understood.
    In short, what Mr.Matsuoka is teaching is Yagyu Seigo Ryu. If Gencho Sensei actually called it Shinkage Ryu at one time, then there's no problem with calling it Shinkage Ryu, but as someone who practices both, I find the name Shinkage Ryu Iai very misleading.
    J.M.

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    Here is some more information that Mr. Skoss mentioned about Yagyu Seigo-ryu/Shinkage-ryu when he replied to my e-mail on the Iaido-L. The subject was actually about a book that came out on Shinkage-ryu iaido

    > Speaking of new books, has anyone seen the book Iaido: The History, Teachings,
    > and Practice of Japanese Swordship by Akita Moriji and William De Lange? I was
    > thumbing through it the other day at a book store and noticed it said
    > Shinkage-ryu iaido. It also said that it's alternate name was Yagyu
    > Seigo-ryu. Is it even worth picking up?


    I've also glanced through the book. It's not too bad, though I think it's better as a general reference, and not as a source of instruction. Books and/or a videotape just don't, you should pardon the expression, cut it.

    What DeLange is doing is an off-shoot of Yagyu Seigo-ryu battojutsu and a fair bit different from what we do in the Yagyukai, under Yagyu Sensei. His teacher, Akita Moriji, is a student of Kashima Kiyotaka, one of the previous headmaster's (Y. Toshinaga [Gencho]) more senior students. After Gencho S. died and his son, Y. Nobuharu Toshimichi, succeeded him, Kashima S. split off and began teaching on his own.

    There are significant differences. For one thing, Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, per se, has never had a iai component and has only ever consisted of kenjutsu, or toho, and hyoho (heiho), which we take to mean military strategy. Iai, or battojutsu as we prefer to call it, is an ancillary form of training and done as a separate entity, Yagyu S. being the 21st headmaster of Y. Shinkage-ryu and the 13th head of Yagyu Seigo-ryu.

    A number of the techniques depicted in the book are quite similar to those in Yagyu Seigo-ryu. Conversely, a number are not. Some of the technique names are identical, others are not. Some of the theory, to the extent that it is discussed, is similar, but much is not. The appendices, however, are not terribly good. Mr. DeLange ought to know/be able to determine the proper pronunciation for the names of different ryu (it's Tatsumi-ryu, not Tatsushin-ryu, and Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, rather'n whatever he called it). You know, piddly stuff like that. Being compulsive about this stuff, though, I thought it was quite careless and didn't like that aspect of the book.

    Is it worth picking up? Yes, I think so. But be aware that there are some big differences and don't depend on it for certain kinds of information.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    How does Meik remember all that stuff when he can't even spell his own name?
    J.M.

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