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Thread: Preservation of Koryu vs. CMA

  1. #1
    Shin Buke Guest

    Default Preservation of Koryu vs. CMA

    Hello fellow e-budoka,

    I just recently moved to Phoenix, Az and have been checking out a bunch of martial art schools around here. I've found a great Aikido place but I've also been looking at various CMA schools out of curiosity. The other day I got to thinking though...

    When I check out a school I try to do a good deal of research on it to get a general idea of its history, characteristics, and the like. The other day I was sitting around and pondering some of the information I had mulled over and something hit me. I realised that, for some reason, Chinese martial art seems to have been much better preserved than koryu which led me to ask myself why.

    From my limited knowledge it appears that many Chinese systems are either as old or much older than many Japanese koryu and, on average, seem to have a greater number of their forms and techniques intact. A good example is the Twelve Fists of the Lohan (I think that's what it's called) which, as I understad, was the progenetor of all Chinese martial art. Those original forms still remain today and are still being passed down.

    On the other hand we have the koryu which are roughly as old. Some systems have been around for several centuries while others date back to almost a thousand years. However, throughout the ages, it would seem that the koryu have lost many of their teachings when compared with various CMA systems. The number of kata that koryu such as TSKSR and Takenouchi-ryu have lost alone could probably fill a reasonably sized book. Many koryu have also become extinct and many others face the sad possibility of extinction.

    So, my question is, what is the reason for this? I admit that it's quite possible that my own limited knowledge of both koryu and CMA could be painting the wrong picture for me and causing me to see things in a skewed way. Also, the list of extant CMA, although extensive, might not match up to the number of extant koryu which might actually mean that the reverse is true. Another thing to consider is population. It would seem to me that China, having a much larger population than Japan at any given point in history, would have a greater number of opportunities to pass on their martial art. In addition, much CMA was designed for use by civilians and monks although many systems have been used by military personalities. This would give CMA a much larger base to pull membership from I'd imagine, as well as having greater application than the battlefield or dueling. On the other hand, the Chinese government has always been at odds with its more esoteric elements. The emperor's quest to annihilate the Shaolin comes to mind there. China is also a very confucian land and seems to have been at odds with it's Taoist element during much of its history. Given that much CMA adopts Taoist principles one would think that such currents would seek to be minimized.

    As far as koryu goes, it was developed mainly for battlefield application and, as such, was limited to higher echelons of the buke. In addition, as the Sengoku ended and the Tokugawa shogunate rose, it would seem that many of the comprehensive, battlefield arts gave way to more duel-oriented ones which might explain why they seem to have suffered more loss. In addition, as the Pax Tokugawa spread, the perceived necessity of martial training also decreased. It is important to note, however, that the style of transmission was very rigid and structured and great care seems to have been placed on transmission, especially though family lines which could be either a great strength or weakness of individual koryu. Not to mention the fact that the koryu were a heavily supported element of the various feudal governments in Japan and fit quite well with the confucian nature of Japan.

    Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I would like to hear your perception of and theories on this interesting (I hope ^_~) little puzzle.

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    Default Re: Preservation of Koryu vs. CMA

    Originally posted by Shin Buke
    Hello fellow e-budoka,
    Not to mention the fact that the koryu were a heavily supported element of the various feudal governments in Japan and fit quite well with the confucian nature of Japan.

    Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I would like to hear your perception of and theories on this interesting (I hope ^_~) little puzzle.
    Well one thing for sure is we dont get any help from the government today. They dont seem to support or help any culture or art form let alone Budo unless it come from another country. A little help would go a long way.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    Invented traditions are not limited solely to Baffling Budo, you know. Thus, much (perhaps most) of the "antiquity" of the Chinese martial arts is nationalist mythology created during the Republican era.

    For background on this, see Stanley Henning's article, "The Martial Arts in Chinese Physical Culture 1865-1965," in Thomas A. Green and Joseph R. Svinth (ed.) _Martial Arts in the Modern World_ (Greenwood: 2003) and Andrew Morris's "From Martial Arts to National Skills: The Construction of a Modern Indigenous Physical Culture, 1912-37," in his book _Marrow of the Nation: A History of Sport and Physical Culture in Republican China_ (University of California Press: 2004).

    As for where it all started, start with Ray Huang's essay on General Qi in _1581: A Year of No Significance_. Then see the books by Naquin on millenarianism in China and Esherick's book on the Boxer Rebellion.

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    Originally posted by Shin Buke
    ....
    I realised that, for some reason, Chinese martial art seems to have been much better preserved than koryu which led me to ask myself why.
    A lot of Chinese systems have been lost. I think maybe this seems the case to you because number of initial CMA systems in existence were so much larger. As a result of this it seems more survived. Boxers who wanted to preserve old systems had to form athletic associations after the failure of the Boxer's Rebellion because the systems were becoming extinct. Many systems did disappear. Japanese systems have done well as gendai budo. The criteria for what people consider koryu are strict. Around the year 1900 when society began a series of rapid changes in China, boxers who wanted to continue to practice CMA had to make efforts to maintain their traditional boxing methods. In Japan after Meiji when martial arts stopped being controlled by families or Ryuha and started being ruled by commitees, people who wanted to continue to practice martial arts had viable options. Kendo, Judo, etc.....

    Originally posted by Shin Buke
    ... A good example is the Twelve Fists of the Lohan (I think that's what it's called) which, as I understad, was the progenetor of all Chinese martial art. Those original forms still remain today and are still being passed down.[/B]
    FWIW I believe it is 18 Lohan fists or 18 Hands of Lohan. The idea of the 18 Lohan comes from the 18 great disciples of Buddha I believe. In Japan they are called Rakan in India they are Arhat I think. Also the number in Japan and India are 16 not 18. The Chinese canonized a couple of other dudes I guess.

    Government oppression was one of the reasons for much of the wide spread transmission of old CMA systems. While Goverment action seems to be much of the reason of the decline of koryu. On the surface it seems a little ironic.

    Also keep in mind concerning some of the antiquities of Chinese martial arts,...What is more important complete and accurate detailed histories or a fabulous legend that feeds the spirit.
    Ed Boyd

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    Default not really

    Anthony wrote (quote):

    "... The number of kata that koryu such as TSKSR and Takenouchi-ryu have lost alone could probably fill a reasonably sized book. Many koryu have also become extinct and many others face the sad possibility of extinction."

    I think these are not very good examples. The Takeuchi-ryu (Takenouchi-ryu) hasn't lost much. Some, not much. It still has in excess of some 450-odd kata, including the original five kogusoku forms and rope forms by its founder, Hisamori. I would hazard a guess that the TSKSR as well has lost some, but not a very large amount compared to its current curriculum.

    As Mr. Svinth also notes, one would have to be wary of claims made by some popular Chinese legends as to the longevity of various CMA. Not to say it may not be possible, but some claims to a long, unbroken (in headmastership and/or unchanging techniques) line may be the stuff of legends and myths.

    I am not saying CMA is any worse or better than koryu; I enjoy my tai chi and think it has a lot of merit in terms of really taking apart and analyzing efficient body movement, and I enjoy my koryu. But I'm not sure the original argument is as plain and clear cut as one would wish it to be.

    As Mr. Hyakutake also notes, the odd thing about the Japanese government and populace is how little it supports its own martial traditions nowadays. Win a gold medal in judo for Japan and all you get is an "atarimae..." (it's to be expected). Win a gold in gymnastics and you get endorsement contracts up the yin-yang. The government supports all manner of arts and crafts traditions but seems to do very little with supporting the budo, IMHO. Just my opinion, of course. I got friends in the Japanese government. ;-)

    Wayne Muromoto

  6. #6
    Shin Buke Guest

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    My thanks for your replies. The situation has many more layers than I surmised to be sure.

    One thing did perk my curiosity though. Mr. Hyakutake and Mr. Muromoto, you both mention that the Japanese government offers little, if any, support to the koryu. Is this a holdover from post-WW2 Japan's anti-military sentiment, is it a result of simple uninterest, is it some other factor?

    Also, from the little I do know about koryu, I understand that it is largely passed down by individuals who do not need or seek to gain profit from their koryu instuction as most of them have regular jobs. It seems to be a rather private enterprise. Given this, what type of support would you like to see from the Japanese government? Would funding from the government be helpful and maybe alleviate some of the financial pressure that koryu sensei have to deal with or are you speaking of more intangible support such as publicity for the koryu or the like?

    Thanks again!

  7. #7
    Mekugi Guest

    Default Re: not really

    A-freakin-men.

    The problem is that Koryu practitioners refuse to put huge commercial endorsements as a priority, which is the core of the pitfalls in koryu bujutsu popularity. I was thinking we could just get Amino Suppli and Aquarius to sponsor embu as a start. Perhaps some notable sensei could endorse their keitai company on commercials- to give that "old world" feeling and sensability of culture back to the ancient tradition of blathering on aimlessly about "which kata goes best with avocado green hakama". I was thinking an all out campaign as well, with variety show appearances and getting SMAP to do some cameo photos.


    The Japanese government cannot afford to spend any more money than already does on Koryu, bottom line. Their offices have tripled the amount of money spent in the past years and cannot seem to find where the funds have gone and why it is not helping. Some savvy politicians, however, are making some progress and have recently discovered what I believe is a direct link to this dilemma:
    no matter how many times you multiply a number by zero, it comes up zero.

    Originally posted by wmuromoto

    As Mr. Hyakutake also notes, the odd thing about the Japanese government and populace is how little it supports its own martial traditions nowadays. Wayne Muromoto
    Last edited by Mekugi; 3rd September 2004 at 20:35.

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    Since Meiji times, the primary financial patrons of kendo and judo have been the Ministry of Education and the police. Both the police and the Ministry of Education sponsored local, regional, and national tournaments, paid fulltime instructors, and arranged teacher training programs. Postwar, karate has also enjoyed financial patronage from the yakuza, assorted rightwing organizations, and the US military.

    Koryu never enjoyed any of this financial patronage, even in the halcyon days of Dai Nippon Butokukai. A DNBK statement on such things, sent to GHQ in 1947 (archival source: Records Group 331, National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, Maryland; online source: http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_1202.htm ):

    QUOTE

    As stated before, owing to the gradual increase in the members since the establishment of the Butokukai in 1895, the branches were operated by the members by prefectures through contributions of members and enthusiasts. In the local districts the martial arts were cultivated and maintained, apart from a few enthusiasts, by police officers from the nature of their duties and the Butokukai was operated with the police officers as the central figures. Its enterprise consisted in the erection of a Butoku Hall and in perfecting the martial arts and confined itself to holding exhibitions once or twice a year for the training of the body and the mind. The branches were independent financially of the central headquarters and possessed independent capital and the leading members thereof were appointed by the branch chiefs. Thus apart from the granting of high gradings which was controlled by the central headquarters, the activities of the branches were not bound in anyway by headquarters, and they were operated on a self-regulatory basis.

    END QUOTE

    ***

    And, FWIW, a transcript of a letter sent by a koryu group to MacArthur's GHQ in 1948, from the same source:


    QUOTE

    Invitation to the Acting Meeting of the Ancient Japanese Knight Arts, 28 May 1948

    To: Director of physical section, educational department G.H.Q.

    1. We take the liverty (sic) of inviting you to the acting meeting of the ancient Japanese knight arts which will be held to display the late instructor’s excellent arts as follows:

    Time and date: From noon to 5.00 P.M. ____ Saturday June 1948.
    Meeting place: Hibiya Public Hall in Tokyo (If this place is changed, new place will be notified).

    Kind of Japanese knight art:

    a) Kyu-Jutsu (Archery)

    b) Hobaku-Jutsu (Art of arrest)

    c) Shiriken-Jutsu (Art of handy sword)

    d) Joh-Jutsu (Art of stick)

    e) Kusarigama-Jutsu (Art of chain-sickle)

    f) Jingai-Jutsu (Art of shell used in camp)

    g) Naginata-Jutsu (Art of long handled sword)

    h) Jitte-Jutsu (Art of metal truncheon)

    i) Kodachi-Jutsu (Art of short sword)

    j) Sou-Jutsu (Art of spear)

    k) Ju-Jutsu (Art of self-defence)

    l) Kenjutsu (Art of Japanese fencing)

    m) Bou-Joutsu (Art of long stick)

    2. Explanation

    The ancient Japanese knight arts are quite different from these at present. Because these arts were always performed for them in order to cultivate their merits of coutesy (sic), modesty, morality and affection. Through these arts they loved peace as their Japanese letters are showing their meaning "stop war".

    The ancient Japanese knight pursuits the gentlemanship. They are strickly (sic) prohibited from use their sowrds (sic) and spears at rnadom (sic). Cosequently (sic) it is evident that these instructors were gentlemen and always looked up to by people then contributed to that times.

    Now, we, niheritors (sic), will get together and hold this meeting for the purpose of thinking of past.

    We shall be much pleased if you will kindly come to this meeting with your family, many officers, enlisted men and civilians.

    /s/ Tetsusaburo Kawauchi, Member of the inheritor’s gathering of the ancient Japanese knight arts

    END QUOTE

  9. #9
    Mekugi Guest

    Default

    To add to this, it is my understanding that the Kyoto Butokukai also ran some sort of a "graduate" program for martial arts before and just after WWII. Studies were composed of various disciplines with a "major", for instance Kodokan Judo being one of them I know of directly.

    Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
    [B]Koryu never enjoyed any of this financial patronage, even in the halcyon days of Dai Nippon Butokukai. A DNBK statement on such things, sent to GHQ in 1947 (archival source: Records Group 331, National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, Maryland; online source: http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_1202.htm ):

    QUOTE

    As stated before, owing to the gradual increase in the members since the establishment of the Butokukai in 1895, the branches were operated by the members by prefectures through contributions of members and enthusiasts. In the local districts the martial arts were cultivated and maintained, apart from a few enthusiasts, by police officers from the nature of their duties and the Butokukai was operated with the police officers as the central figures. Its enterprise consisted in the erection of a Butoku Hall and in perfecting the martial arts and confined itself to holding exhibitions once or twice a year for the training of the body and the mind. The branches were independent financially of the central headquarters and possessed independent capital and the leading members thereof were appointed by the branch chiefs. Thus apart from the granting of high gradings which was controlled by the central headquarters, the activities of the branches were not bound in anyway by headquarters, and they were operated on a self-regulatory basis.

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    You're probably thinking of the Budo Senmon Gakko, also called Busen, which was in Kyoto. Rod Omoto trained there before the Pacific War. See http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue8/Omoto.html .

    See also http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=87 (Minoru Hirai).

    Also see Endnote 3 at http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_abe_0600.htm , which states:

    EN3. In 1914 a Japanese police official named Hiromichi Nishikubo published a series of articles arguing that the Japanese martial arts should be called budo ("martial ways") rather than bujutsu ("martial techniques"), and used primarily to teach schoolchildren to be willing to sacrifice their lives for the Emperor. In 1919, Nishibuko became head of a major martial art college (Bujutsu Senmon Gakko) and immediately ordered its name changed to Budo Senmon Gakko, and subsequently Dai Nippon Butokukai publications began talking about budo, kendo, judo, and kyudo rather than bujutsu, gekken, jujutsu, and kyujutsu. The Ministry of Education followed suit in 1926, and in 1931 the word budo began to refer to compulsory ideological instruction in the Japanese public schools. For more on this topic, see Tamio Nakamura, Kendo jiten: gijutsu to bunka no rekishi (Kendo Gazeteer: A Technical and Cultural History) (Tokyo: Shimatsu Shobo, 1994); my thanks to Professor William Bodiford of UCLA for the citation and translation.

  11. #11
    Mekugi Guest

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    I'm fairly sure these were two different programs. I've seen a few references to the Nippon Butokukai and to the Busen Budo College as different entities, so it would appear that way. For example, the Kyoto University has noted them as constituents separate from one another:
    Kyoto University Judo Club was founded by Mr. HIROSE Etsutaro in Meiji 33 (1900). In those days there was Butokukai (the Martial Arts Association) in Kyoto. Mr. KOJIMA Tomojiro was a student of Kyoto University as well as associate professor of Butokukai and Budo Senmon Gakko (abbreviated as Busen, Budo College). Dojo of Kyoto University was so sophisticated that it was filled with many students of Kyoto University and Butokukai.
    http://www.kusu.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~judo/history-e.htm


    Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
    You're probably thinking of the Budo Senmon Gakko, also called Busen, which was in Kyoto. Rod Omoto trained there before the Pacific War.
    Last edited by Mekugi; 7th September 2004 at 13:53.

  12. #12
    Mekugi Guest

    Default Gottit...

    大日本柦徳会柦�専門埦柡碑
    ã?Ÿã?„ã?«ã?£ã?½ã‚“ã?¶ã?¨ã??ã?‹ã?„ã?¶ã?©ã?†ã?›ã‚“ã‚‚ã‚“ã?Œã?£ã?“ã?†ã?²


    大日本柦徳会ã?¯ï¼Œæ¡“柦天皇(737~806)ã?Œå¹³å®‰äº¬æŸ¦å¾³æ®¿ã?§æŸ¦æŠ€ã‚’奨励ã?—ã?Ÿã?“ã?¨ã? «å›Ÿã‚“ã?§ï¼Œæ˜Žæ²»28(1895)年平安神宮創訟を機ã?«è¨Ÿç«‹ã?•ã‚Œã?Ÿã€‚明治38年,ã?“ã?®åœ°ã? «æŸ¦è¡“教員養æˆ?所ã?Œé–‹è¨Ÿã?•ã‚Œï¼Œã?®ã?¡æŸ¦é?“専門埦柡ã?¨ã?ªã?£ã?Ÿã€‚星和21(1946)å¹´æ•—æ ˆ¦ã?«ä¼´ã?„閉鎖ã?•ã‚Œã?Ÿã€‚ã?“ã?®çŸ³æ¨™ã?¯ã??ã?®è·¡ã‚’示ã?™ã‚‚ã?®ã?§ã?‚る。


    DAINIPPON BUTOKUKAI BUDO SEMMON GAKKOU HI
    The Stele of Dai Nippon Butokukai / Budo Semmon Gakko

    At the same time that the Heian Jingu was established in Meiji year 28 (1895), the Dai Nippon Butokukai was established at the prompting of Emperor Kammu (737-806) who promoted Bugi (martial techniques) at the Heian kyo Butokuden. In Meiji year 38(1905), "Budo Kyoin Youseijo (Budo Instructors' school)" was established at the Butokukai grounds, which later evolved into "Budo Semmon gakko." This school was closed in Showa year 21 (1946) after Japan lost WWII.A stele was then created indicating the existence of the school and it's location.

    From: The Kyoto City Museum website at the location:
    http://www.city.kyoto.jp/somu/rekish...tml/sa056.html
    Last edited by Mekugi; 7th September 2004 at 14:52.

  13. #13
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    This is an interesting topic

    Ok, during my teaching at UC Irvine this summer ("Violence in East Asia: 12th-19th Centuries") I discovered one thing: that in early modern China there are just as many, if not more, styles/organiztions/groups/individuals practicing and selling their martial arts skills than in Tokugawa Japan. In addition to Naquin and Esherick who've written on the subject some time ago, there's Violence in China by SUNY press, Disorder Under Heaven: Collective Violence in Ming China, Bandits, Eunuchs and the Son of Heaven , Like Froth Floating on the Sea (about piracy in Qing China but has much on fighting and violence), Brotherhoods and Secret Societies in early and mid-Qing China , plus other books on the boxers, the white lotus, the red spears, etc. These all talk about the number of martial artists as mercenaries, bandits, pirates, local toughs, protesters etc wandering about in Ming and Qing China. Sure these people are creating and changing their arts along the way, and adding legends to support their agendas, but they're using martial arts. And these arts weren't created in a vaccum, there were antecedents. Policing Shanghai has a good bit on the Chinese trying to create a national martial art in the Republican era. And an article in the Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies "Ming Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice" (v61#2 2001) by Meir Shahar (who is also writing a book (a scholarly work) on the Shaolin temple) is an interesting read.

    As for Japanese koryu, we really need to understand the agenda behind koryu styles claiming to be old/legitimate (and the difference between those claims made by Westerns and Japanese), be aware of the drawbacks on reading (believing) texts, and problems with accepting what budo teachers have to say about history (a kendo teacher does not a social-political historian make...).

    What purpose did it serve in early modern society to say one practiced budo? Do you think it was all about getting ready for the next battle? Were there hordes of warriors fighting on the battle field using their shinto/shinkage etc ryu skills? Or do we hear more about individuals and their exploits?

    That's not to say fighting didn't happen in Tokugawa Japan. The number of commoners practicing martial arts was on the rise in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. People not only imitated their social betters and created social networks through martial arts practice, but also dealt with the increasing number of trouble makers wandering throughout the countryside with martial art skills. Not much in English on this yet (at the village level) but in Japanese there's
    Fuse, Kenji “Bakumatsuki Kawagoehan ni okeru Kenjutsu Ryuha Kaikaku” in Nihon Rekishi #640 Sept. Or something for the popular audience would be Takahashi's Kunisada no jidai: yomi, kaki, to kenjutsu. Even with peasant uprsings in Tokugawa Japan you have to remember that humans were rarely the targets of peasant action, and only ringleaders were punished--after officials waited for the violence to subside (and when they did make a move they paid burakumin and other commoners to do the arresting/fighting). The scale and variety of groups involved in fighting in Qing China is much greater.

    Just some thoughts
    Michael Wert, PhD
    Associate Professor
    History Dept.
    Marquette University

  14. #14
    Mekugi Guest

    Default

    Then why did the peasantry arm themselves with bamboo spears?
    Originally posted by Michael Wert
    Even with peasant uprsings in Tokugawa Japan you have to remember that humans were rarely the targets of peasant action, and only ringleaders were punished--after officials waited for the violence to subside (and when they did make a move they paid burakumin and other commoners to do the arresting/fighting). The scale and variety of groups involved in fighting in Qing China is much greater.

    Just some thoughts
    Ummm...

    The beheading of 37,000 peasant/rebels at the end of the Shimabara Rebellion in 1638 doesn't sound like punishing ringleaders to me.

    Furthermore, those "non-human-targeting" peasants managed to slaughter the Hirataka army on Akasuka, with some 2,000+ bushi being killed out of an army of 3,000+ (memory here, grain of salt.)
    That's only to be topped by another 12,000 Hizen bushi being killed throughout the campaign. To me this this sounds as though those pesky peasants were after blood and not last years rice stock.

    Of course those casulaty numbers are nowhere near British Regulars gunning down people who thought themselves bullet-proof by the droves but they do regard merit.

    Edo..peaceful....yeah, right.
    Last edited by Mekugi; 8th September 2004 at 00:32.

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    I'm talking late 18th early 19th, not moments after Tokugawa was established.
    Michael Wert, PhD
    Associate Professor
    History Dept.
    Marquette University

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