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Thread: Those With Whom The Bujinkan May Not Train List Query

  1. #1
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    Default Those With Whom The Bujinkan May Not Train List Query

    Ok. It saddens me that such a list even exists. However, as I follow the Bujinkan system I suppose I should know who exactly is on this list (if for no other reason than to keep myself out of trouble). Could someone please post a definitive copy of this list? My apologies to anyone for whom this causes ruffled feathers. For some things I may be doing in the future, I really need to know.

    Thanks for your help.

    Take care,
    John

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    I have heard of this list of names too but I wasn't sure if these were just rumours. So until I get a definitive answer form someone who knows for sure I am not going to say any names

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    I believe you will find most if not all names on that list will be past members who are kobujutsu jissen kekio.... and not into the art for arts sake training.
    Have you notice....?
    Anyone who is a treat to you seems to get put on a list of some kind...
    Hitler had a list too.

    Hope you find your list...

    kamiyama, ralph severe
    Dallas Ninjutsu Academy
    www.artofcombat.com
    The best Japanese and Mexican Bugei in Dallas !

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    Brilliant, Ralph. You're comparing Hatsumi sensei to Hitler.

    "The list" depends on whom you ask. You'd be best off asking someone you trust, who gets to japan and speaks with Hatsumi sensei regularly.

    Asking on line is a sure way to ge a lot of people who don't know anything giving you 'the gospel truth'.
    ____________
    Aric Keith

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    Ralph, do you realise what you are saying?
    Do you realise that in fact you are telling us that the people on the list have too much ego to train under a teacher?

    Just something to think about...
    Achim Steigert
    Bujinkan Te-Nage Dōjō
    Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu
    Shodan - translated: beginners grade

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    Brilliant, Ralph. You're comparing Hatsumi sensei to Hitler.
    **ky, I don’t believe I said anything like that. Did you read something into what I posted?*****
    Ralph, do you realize what you are saying?
    **ky, yes, I realize what I’m saying. Well most of the time..****
    Do you realize that in fact you are telling us that the people on the list have too much ego to train under a teacher?
    **ky, Ego… ? I don’t believe ego has anything to do with someone telling you can or cannot train with another person because they don’t want you to because they no longer train under your banner or organization. Does it? Hey maybe it does.
    What I’m asking you is it that someone has out of control ego to not allow you to train with who you wish to?
    If Hatsumi sensei was in the Dallas area I would visit him weekly.
    If Tanemura sensei was in the Dallas area I would visit him weekly.
    If Hayes shihan was in the Dallas area I would visit him weekly.
    If Sean Askew was in the Dallas area I would visit him weekly.
    If Dan Inosanto was in the Dallas area I would most likely visit him too.
    I believe you get my point.
    Not anyone has the right or rule over me in saying who I can and cannot train with. It is my life.
    How about you?******

    Please add me to the list too...
    I rather train with who I wish.

    ralph severe, kamiyama
    Dallas Ninjutsu Academy
    www.artofcombat.com
    The best Japanese and Mexican Bugei in Dallas !

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    There is no definitive (any) "list" on the subject to my knowledge, so what are you asking for? The opinions of e-budoka about whom they think hatsumi-sensei doesnt want us to train with?

    IMO it all boils down to people (not?) trying to find a balance between people being their own "warrior" on the "quest", and people who swallow everything that their teacher says to them. "knowing" it because they were "told" it was that way. If you want Hatsumi-senseis budo, you know the answer. If you want another persons "flavor" of takamatsu-den arts, take that path. Thats the best answer I have right now.
    Isaiah 'Ike' Finck
    BKR Columbus
    http://www.bkrcolumbus.com

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    HI

    I wouldnt worry about any supposed lists - there all made up

    many of them have been proved as fabrication to boost the originators ego or money belt.

    Unless some one external to your dojo is effecting you personally I would put all lists in the trash.

    One such list recently was proved to be massively inaccurate in regards to why the list was mentioned and who actually created it and why it was created. in the end with chinese whispers it almost became official bujinkan rules with out hatsumi sensei creating it.

    Leave politics to the government they havent a clue what there doing so we have no chance either understanding or controling politics
    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

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    Originally posted by poryu
    Leave politics to the government they havent a clue what there doing so we have no chance either understanding or controling politics
    I would generally agree with you. However, I do have some things in the future where this may actually become an issue. As things are still developing I am holding off on giving much details. Suffice to say that this is partially in reference to the Bushido House Project for which I am currently doing a feasibility study as well as other possible future projects. The last thing I need to do is to unwittingly get myself into trouble.

    As I understand it, Tanemura and the Genbukan, Manaka and the Jinenkan and Hayes with To Shin Do are all off limits. I had recently heard that there were others. It's these others for which I am curious.

    Any definitive help on this would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    John

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    Paul Richardson

    Thank You for clearing up what I think is a very valid point about this list of who not to train with. I cannot believe that Dr Hatsumi would ever create such a list, however there are I believe people in the organisation that may have reasons to stop their students training with other organisations.
    If people are doing this then it is very sad. Ninjutsu is not a cult. It is about freedom and we should be able to train with who ever we wish. The only people in fear in regard to their students training with other groups is the bad and innefective teachers.
    Lets all train together. We are all students of Ninjutsu even though we may prefer one method to another. I like the TO-SHIN DO system, although I have trained with Hatsumi sensei, Tanemura sensei, Tanaka semsei, and others and have learnt from all of them and if a seminar came up I may train with them again.
    As I said on another post, there are people with hidden agenda's in all organisations. we should rise above these rumours and train like adults, and unless Hatsumi Sensei has signed this piece of paper then it really is not worth the paper its written on.

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    I don't believe that there is a " list" form what I have been told is that there are some individuals that have not trained with Soke for years or have not maintained their status within Bujikan and I believe Soke is just cracking down on those who are going around giving seminars/instruction and they themselves haven't gone back for there own instruction. By saying this it doesn't mean that I wouldn't take the oppertunity to see some high ranking people in action but I do believe that you do need to maintain your own education to teach others correctly.

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    Originally posted by Oniyama

    As I understand it, Tanemura and the Genbukan, Manaka and the Jinenkan and Hayes with To Shin Do are all off limits. I had recently heard that there were others. It's these others for which I am curious.
    Why not train with them? Just go and learn what you need, which is what we are all learning to do.

    Just that Hayes teaches To Shin Do, does not mean you can not actually train with him, it is that you can not train with him under the bujinkan name when looking into To Shin Do. Just as long as you do not wear the badge and belt, you can train. After all, it is now good to go and X train with other styles, so why not with Hayes.
    "people speak of fallen angels. The Bible, in Genesis, mentions these fallen angels as sons of God, or in some Bibles they're called the Watchers. These were an entity, an incubus-type spirit which impregnated the women of the Earth and produced this race of people called the Nephilim. They supposedly taught man of war, magic and astrology." Carl McCoy

    W.H. Northcote

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    There is a significant point being missed here in all the hoopla about a list – are you a budoka or a civil servant?

    With no offence intended to those who actually are civil servants, the point is that you shouldn’t need a list to know who to train with and not. If you consider yourself a good student of Hatsumi Soke then you will know that he insists that students of the Bujinkan martial arts train with him or with those who train with him regularly.

    The names on ‘the list’ all share something in common – the people in question don’t train with Soke anymore and hence are not good representatives of the type of training and knowledge that Soke wishes to promote right now. (As I understand it, most of the people mentioned could probably redeem themselves in Soke’s eyes by returning to proper training - That’s all he is interested in. He has to protect the integrity of the ryuha and teachings he was passed)

    So the question is not do you need a list to know who to train with but rather, if you consider yourself a good student of Hatsumi Sensei’s, can you not figure this out for yourself?

    If you are only interested in bettering your skills and don’t care what Soke thinks, then that’s fine, train with whoever you like – many of the people being discussed are skilled budoka who can teach a lot. If you do care however, and you want Hatsumi Sensei’s guidance and his shihan’s guidance in years to come, then you do need to have a think about this.

    Alex Meehan
    Dublin, Ireland

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    Default List...

    I was at two seminars in the US where the same list of folks were mentioned. The first seminar was by Ed Lomax the second by Tim Bathurst. The most troubling part of this was that when it was announced it was very clear that if we chose to train with these people we were not welcome in the Bujinkan, so to be honest I'm not taking any chances myself.

    As their was no request not to share this information this is the list that we received:

    Steven Hayes
    Ishizuka (sp?)
    Mirumastu (sp?)
    Manaka

    IMO do with this info what you will. Worse case ask the man in person your next trip to Japan. I can't say with 100% certainty one way or another about the validity of this list, just letting you know the list we heard and by whom.
    Lance Boggs
    _____________________

    "The man who can most truly be accounted brave is he who best knows the meaning of what is sweet in life and what is terrible, and then goes out undeterred to meet what is to come."

    Pericles

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    Default Thank you

    I just wanted to say a quick thank you to everyone who posted. I think I have pretty much recieved the information I need. Again, thanks for your help.

    Take care,
    John

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