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Thread: How long to black Belt

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    Default How long to black Belt

    I post the new thread because I am interested in how long people think that it should take to get to black belt. I read on this site the other day that it took Peter King only 4 years to go from 5th Kyu to 5th Dan. I find that amazingly quick, especially when we see how long it takes to reach that grade if one was doing Aikido, Judo, Karate etc.
    I know when Tanemura Sensei broke away from Hatsumi Sensei the first thing he did was put together a grading curriculum in book form, and I found as a student of the Genbukan that this was a fantastic help for my students and myself as a teacher.
    Tanemura Sensei also had very strict guidelines for achieving each grade and one could not just turn up on seminar and gain your next dan.
    I know I failed gradings under Tanemura Sensei, because I was not good enough. And I respect him for having the courage for doing this. I think that sometimes it is very hard to say to your students "Sorry but you failed your grade". These people are often friends, and if you are teaching martial arts for a living, its quite possible your students may leave.
    I believ that Manaka Sensei also has a strict grading sylabus.
    I know according to the TO-SHIN DO manual that training twice a week takes 4 years to reach Shodan. In the manual, which was sent to me to teach my students by An-Shu Hayes, the manual actually lays out exactly what each student should be learning week by week and what things they should know. This means that all students wearing say a yellow belt are all equal in skill and knowledge.
    it seems to me that belts are given out so freely in the Bujinkan, and therefore does this then mean that people of the same rank may be totally different in skill.
    Peter King is now 15th Dan, yet is he as good as Doron Navon, or Stephen Hayes who were training in the early days.
    I know there will be many people rushing to defend the Bujinkan, but I ask this question purely to find out what people think. I appreciate that Hatsumi Sensei has a unique way of teaching his students, but would students of the bujinkan prefer a grading sylabus laid out by Dr Hatsumi stating what is needed for each grade or is the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku No Maki enough. Of which I have heard there are at least 3 versions.

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    I read on this site the other day that it took Peter King only 4 years to go from 5th Kyu to 5th Dan.
    Actually, you read an excerpt from an interview with someone who wasn't Peter King who made this claim. Have you bothered to check that this is actually a fact before disparaging the man in this forum? His e-mail address is not hard to find . . .

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    As I said I read it on this site. I never said it was a fact. I do however remember when Peter King was a Green Belt, and when only a few months after turned up at the 1986 Stephen K Hayes Seminar as a Shodan.
    In 18 years he has taken therefore 15 Dans. He is probably very very good and is indeed worthy of that rank.
    My point was that in Ninjutsu, especially in the Bujinkan we seem to grade very quickly compared to other organisations and martial arts.

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    I have been training just over a year now and am currently 8th kyu. That seems reasonable enough. Also, most of the 5th dans I know have trained at least 7 years to achieve their grade. Something our instructor said that I find very true to bujinkan is that the student grades him or herself, instructors merely see that they have reached a certain level of skill and grade accordingly. As far as I know Shihan Peter King trained hard for many years to achieve his rank and I look forward to going to his seminar next month.
    "Don't try to be the fastest, strongest, most aggressive, but aim to be the one who can find the slack/space in a situation to enable you to solve it easily in general life or in self defense, it is all the same."- Ed Lomax

    Michael Caffrey

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    Default Peter King

    It took Peter longer than four years to reach 5th dan, I can't remember exactly how long but it's worth remembering that he had some seriously high grades in other arts before he started training in the Bujinkan

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    He has trained for over 20 years to reach 14th dan and he holds dan grades and teaching licences in jujutsu, savate, kickboxing and numerous other martial disciplines. Seems to me he knows his stuff!
    "Don't try to be the fastest, strongest, most aggressive, but aim to be the one who can find the slack/space in a situation to enable you to solve it easily in general life or in self defense, it is all the same."- Ed Lomax

    Michael Caffrey

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    I am not saying that Peter King is not worth his grade or that he is not good. Stop being so defensive. If it is the requirement of the Bubjinkan that it should only take 20 years (as stated in a post) then so be it. That is Hatsumi Senseis wishes.
    What I am asking is what people thing that the average time it should take people to get to black belt status. I am sure you will agree that one can get serious dan levels in Ninjutsu e.g 5th Dan in a short amount of time which could take a lifetime to get in other martial arts.

    I know that people have got to 5th Dan in less that 20 years.
    My worry is that in the martial arts community Ninjutsu is already not taken seriously. Hence possibly why we now have Bujin Taijutsu, Kokusai Jujutsu and TO-SHIN DO and less of the word Ninjutsu.

    I myself feel that if a ninjutsu black belt was asked by lets say a high ranked martial artist in another style what grade he was and he replied 5th Dan, and then asked how long he had trained and he replied 10 years, then there may be a few raised eyebrows.

    I know Peter King is a 15th Dan, but what grade are Noguchi, Nagato, Ishizuka, Navon and Hayes who I believe have been training longer. With the first three I believe training weekley with Hatsumi Sensei.

    Now this is just a question, not an attack, there is no need to jump back in the Sui No Kata Ichimonji No kamae posture to fend off this post. Please let us have a discussion without slating each other.

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    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    I know that people have got to 5th Dan in less that 20 years.
    My worry is that in the martial arts community Ninjutsu is already not taken seriously. Hence possibly why we now have Bujin Taijutsu, Kokusai Jujutsu and TO-SHIN DO and less of the word Ninjutsu.

    I myself feel that if a ninjutsu black belt was asked by lets say a high ranked martial artist in another style what grade he was and he replied 5th Dan, and then asked how long he had trained and he replied 10 years, then there may be a few raised eyebrows.
    Why do you care about this? Why is it important that ninjutsu is taken seriously by people not involved in the training?

    Why is it important that the 'ninja' win the >ahem< 'measuring' contest you describe. Sounds like an ego thing. Sounds like you're worried that the "high ranked martial artist" is going to call "!!!!!!!!" and the 'ninja' will feel bad and have his ego deflated by those who do not respect his mad sneaky skilz.

    --

    I think that a system with a spelled out grading curriculum is fine, but it's still unrealistic to assume that every person will be totally equal in skill and knowledge within the system. Closer, yes, the same, no.

    But, I do know one thing the Bujinkan system has taught me. I've been trying to learn to see, really see, what people are doing, how good they are, who they are- so that I can make sure I train with the best- regardless of their rank.
    Stephen Kovalcik

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    Personally I don't think you can have a difinitive timescale on when someone should be a 1st or 5th Dan etc, it is a personal thing between Instructor and Student.

    The issue that we have is that when someone goes into a Dojo and asks what rank the instructor is and he get the answer 8th Dan and when asked how long he has been training states 12 years, anyone with any prior interest in the Martial Arts will automatically raise an eyebrow. It doesn't happen in other systems as far as I know (I stand to be corrected on this). Once this has happened pre concieved notions are bound to occur and that individual I would envisage in most cases does not take the art seriously (his loss, but a loss none the less.)

    But this is the system rules that we in the Bujinkan have, at times it is annoying when you see some walking (Swaggering ) around with a black belt on, who have no idea what they are doing and that is the image that comes across sometimes.

    Personally I keep training and try to ignore those on their own path. Although sometimes its harder than others.
    Dave Pawson
    Bujinkan Kokoro Dojo

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    Default Re: Peter King

    Originally posted by Alacoque
    It took Peter longer than four years to reach 5th dan
    The other Meehan (No relation by any chance?) demands that people are sure of their facts before posting, so are you sure of this fact?

    The first Bujinkan seminar in the UK was, I believe, held with Mr Munthe in October 1983 and Peter had his godan in August 1987 which by my reckoning is slightly less than 4 years.
    John Anderson

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    The funny thing about all of this is that I remember reading almost every one of SKH's books more than once about 8 yr's ago and in the big white one with him in daijodan (Ninjutsu: The Art Of The Invisible Warrior?) Hayes specifically states that it takes 20 yrs. to cover the omote and 20 yrs. to cover the ura aspects of ninja training and also that it would take a lifetime of study to eventually even approach mastery.

    Something along the lines of,"You will become a master of the art if you were meant to be" or whatever.

    That book was published in the early to mid 80's if I'm not incorrect?

    The point is, If Mr. Hatsumi was teaching his students that as a requisite to true mastery one would need 40 yrs. of their life "day in and day out" hard training, why in recent times has it been so easy to attain ranks allegating 'master' status?

    This 1's easy.

    I know in the Genbukan we have a set # of manditory classes one must attend before even being considered for promotion. 30 up until 4'th kyu and then 45 for 3,2,1 and the dan-level grading is another story.

    As for Shodan I think that it should take a student at least 4 yrs. to attain unless He/She is truly an exception and is dedicated far beyond the Sun.



    Regards,

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    I believe that concentrating on OTHER peoples grades and other peoples wishes and attempting do disect Hatsumis motives is throughly unproductive. In the UK bujinkan there are some truly great martial artists of different rank and some truly appauling instuctors. A complete melting pot. The best thing surely is to train with those people who inspire you and make your own decision on their abilities rather than listen to hearsay or rank. The fact that grades do not always relate to what some peoples perception of 'skill' is, is imho a good thing as it helps see what an empty thing rank is and encourages us to look beyond that.

    simon hamilton.

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    stephen Kovachic (I apologise if I spelt your name wrong)

    You ask me why I think it is important that people not involved in Ninjutsu take the art seriously.

    the answer to this is simple. If we as practitioners are not taken seriously then the art of Ninjutsu will die. We have already been ridiculed in Britain by martial arts instructors including the editor/owner of an English martial arts magazine Terry Oneil who has stated quite catergorically that Ninjutsu does not exist.

    Other martial arts Karate, Judo etc have a great amount of power and I am sure they would love to see us go. It nearly happened in the UK a few years ago when the MAC tried to make sure that everybody in the UK was a licenced Coach.
    There is no problem with that except that you had to be trained by Karate, Judo and Jujutsu instructors who knew nothing about the art.
    They tried to lobby government to make this law and if you did not have a teaching licence you could not teach.
    Thankfully this did not actually happen, but I did speak to more than a few Ninjutsu instructors and other martial arts instructors of other minority arts such as Kali who were more than a little worried.

    Because Karate, Judo etc are seen as mainstream arts they are taken serious, hence they have a lot of students and therefore have a great amount of power.

    Could you imagine if the government wanted to ban Karate, well there would be an outrage.

    If they tried to ban ninjutsu we would be a cry in the wilderness, and trying to press the media, or the general public for support would just be met by more derision.

    Mind you it would probably never come to having ninjutsu lobbying in support of our art we would probably be too busy argueing amongst ourselves.

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    Cool Different Strokes For Different Folks

    Hope you're ready for a long one...

    I know I'm not going to change any minds with this. Those who think in static ways are unable to comprehend non-static systems. I just want to give my feelings on the matter.

    Gary Arthur: "I post the new thread because I am interested in how long people think that it should take to get to black belt."

    I think it should take 3-5 years.

    "I read on this site the other day that it took Peter King only 4 years to go from 5th Kyu to 5th Dan. I find that amazingly quick,..."

    So?

    "...especially when we see how long it takes to reach that grade if one was doing Aikido, Judo, Karate etc."

    Ninjutsu is not aikido, judo, nor karate.

    "I know when Tanemura Sensei broke away from Hatsumi Sensei the first thing he did was put together a grading curriculum in book form,..."

    Sounds very static and inflexible to me. I thought ninjutsu was supposed to be a supple and dynamic art. ??

    "... and I found as a student of the Genbukan that this was a fantastic help for my students and myself as a teacher."

    It does sound like a useful thing to have. Isn't it nice when other people do things for us to make our lives easier?

    "Tanemura Sensei also had very strict guidelines for achieving each grade and one could not just turn up on seminar and gain your next dan."

    Good for him. I've heard that rumor of people getting a new dan grade just for turning up at a seminar, but never heard any specifics if this has ever actually happened. If it did, I'm sure there was a good reason for it, likely a reason hard to understand by someone used to strict curricula.

    "I know I failed gradings under Tanemura Sensei, because I was not good enough."

    I failed to go from 7th kyu to 3rd kyu over a period of 4-1/2 years, and testing wasn't required. In the Bujinkan, one is graded every time they train, and a good shidoshi knows when the time is right for a promotion with or without a formal test.

    Just another one of the differences between the two organizations; doesn't make either one better than the other.

    "These people are often friends, and if you are teaching martial arts for a living, its quite possible your students may leave."

    So? If students are leaving because they didn't get the rank they thought they deserved, then good ridance! If someone is teaching martial arts for a living, they often have to comprimise the art to better appeal to the masses in order to draw in and keep a lot of students. That is why I don't train with people who teach for a living.

    "I believ that Manaka Sensei also has a strict grading syllabus."

    Good for him.

    "I know according to the TO-SHIN DO manual that training twice a week takes 4 years to reach Shodan..., the manual actually lays out exactly what each student should be learning week by week and what things they should know."

    Again, sounds very static, and doesn't leave much room for individual differences, or personal expression (things that make art art). Also, it seems a bit anal (pardon the vernacular) to be so detailed – “week by week” for “4 years?” – that’s 208 detailed lines of specific instruction. Sounds more like a computer program than a syllabus for an art class. I guess it’s good for people that need a lot of structure in their lives.

    “This means that all students wearing say a yellow belt are all equal in skill and knowledge.”

    That must be nice. Personally, I’d like to train at my own pace and be better than the rest of the yellow belts even though I too wore a yellow belt myself.

    “It seems to me that belts are given out so freely in the Bujinkan,…”

    Could you cite some examples please?

    “… and therefore does this then mean that people of the same rank may be totally different in skill.”

    (I see no question mark, but I’ll assume you’re actually asking a question instead of stating this rhetorically).

    Yes.

    “I know there will be many people rushing to defend the Bujinkan, but I ask this question purely to find out what people think.”

    The Bujinkan doesn’t need my defense; I’m telling you what I think. I actually agree with you that there should be more specific guidelines for rank, but I also know that the Bujinkan is above such trivialities, and I’m ok with that.

    “I appreciate that Hatsumi Sensei has a unique way of teaching his students, but would students of the bujinkan prefer a grading sylabus laid out by Dr Hatsumi stating what is needed for each grade…”

    I’m sure many students would prefer that, and those that really want it can join another organization if it’s that important to them.

    “…or is the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku No Maki enough. Of which I have heard there are at least 3 versions.”

    I think it’s enough for shodan. Allowing individual shidoshi freedom to grade as they see fit, but recommending that all the material in the Tenchijin be studied thoroughly before shodan allows teachers and students to go at their own pace, but still sets a guideline for minimum requirements. It wouldn’t be too hard for an instructor to divide each of the 3 sections of the Ten-Chi-Jin into 3 sub-sections, and there ya’ go - 9 separate curriculums for 9 kyu ranks.

    Oh, and there is only one version. There are at least 3 different translations done by other shihan to have it in their native language though. And it is often confused with the Togakure Ninpo Taijutsu book, as each use the names Ten, Chi, Jin as chapter headings.

    The proper name for the Tenchijin is Bujinkan Dojo Shinden Kihon Gata. Tenchijin is more of a nickname or sub-title.

    Re: Peter King
    “In 18 years he has taken therefore 15 Dans. He is probably very very good and is indeed worthy of that rank.”

    Maybe, maybe not. What’s your point?

    ”My point was that in Ninjutsu, especially in the Bujinkan we seem to grade very quickly compared to other organisations and martial arts.”

    Uh-huh. So again, what’s your point? How meaningful are these comparisons? Are you so concerned with image that you’re afraid other martial artists will laugh at you?

    Personally, I’m glad some other martial arts/artists don’t take ninjutsu seriously. I’d rather be underestimated than the other way around. I’m not in it for the image, or the prestige, or for measuring up to artists from other styles. Those things just seem so shallow to me.

    Budo-Mike: “I have been training just over a year now and am currently 8th kyu. That seems reasonable enough. Also, most of the 5th dans I know have trained at least 7 years to achieve their grade.”

    This has been my experience too. I hear so often from people outside the Buj’ that our members receive grades so quickly, and don’t have the skill or experience worthy of such ranks. I have yet to see any specific case of this though – maybe I’ve just been lucky.

    It took me a year to reach 7th kyu, training twice a week, every week. It took another 4-1/2 years to get to my present rank of 3rd kyu (I guess I just really suck at this art – oh well, gotta keep practicing then). On the average, it has taken every shidoshi I know at least 10 years for godan. I think that’s reasonable enough too.

    Gary Arthur: “If it is the requirement of the Bubjinkan that it should only take 20 years (as stated in a post) then so be it. That is Hatsumi Senseis wishes.”

    I don’t think that is a requirement or Hatsumi-sensei’s wish, just one possibility.

    “I am sure you will agree that one can get serious dan levels in Ninjutsu e.g 5th Dan in a short amount of time…”

    It’s possible; not probable though. Again, I don’t think you’ll really find many Bujinkan shidoshi that have trained for less than 10 years.

    “…which could take a lifetime to get in other martial arts.”

    Again, with the comparisons to other arts. ?? We are not karate, we are not judo. It’s a different art, different organization with the freedom to grade how it sees fit without any desire to ‘be like everyone else.’

    I think that ninjutsu as a whole is so superior to other arts that any comparison is insulting. And that’s my thoroughly biased and deluded opinion.

    “I know that people have got to 5th Dan in less that 20 years.”

    It sounds like you want ‘20 years to godan’ to be a requirement. ?? So would you be happier if it took 4-5 years to reach shodan, and then another 3-4 years for each dan thereafter? That would about add up to 20 years. It’s ok if you do, and it sounds perfectly reasonable to me. If that’s what you want then find an art that ranks according to that scheme. I’m sorry the Bujinkan doesn’t fulfill your desires.

    “My worry is that in the martial arts community Ninjutsu is already not taken seriously.”

    Good. I don’t want to be taken seriously. I mean come on, we are playing with silly ‘ninjer’ stuff. Who could take that seriously?

    “Hence possibly why we now have Bujin Taijutsu, Kokusai Jujutsu and TO-SHIN DO and less of the word Ninjutsu.”

    There are various reasons for that.
    One: The Bujinkan teaches more than ninjutsu now. Togakure ryu was the ‘it’ art a few decades ago, and ninjutsu was the new big thing. Hatsumi wanted to shed light on the true art of ninjutsu and help dispel a few myths. That having been accomplished, and since the Bujinkan teaches much much more than ninjutsu, continuing to call it a ninjutsu organization would be quite limiting. The name Budou-Taijutsu is very fitting because we are learning ‘martial arts’ and ‘body skills.’

    Two: Other organizations not referring to their art as ninjutsu is quite proper because they do not represent the true ninjutsu as taught by Hatsumi-sensei.

    Three: It is true that ninjutsu still has a bad rep. which is fine, so keeping the fact that you teach or practice ninjutsu hidden is sensible (and quite frankly, the ninja-thing to do!).

    “I myself feel that if a ninjutsu black belt was asked by lets say a high ranked martial artist in another style what grade he was and he replied 5th Dan, and then asked how long he had trained and he replied 10 years, then there may be a few raised eyebrows.”

    Oh no! Not ‘The Deadly Raised Eyebrow of Doom!’ ™

    Tweety: “But, I do know one thing the Bujinkan system has taught me. I've been trying to learn to see, really see, what people are doing, how good they are, who they are- so that I can make sure I train with the best- regardless of their rank.”

    I think this is a very important point, and I’ve been thinking recently that the hard-to-understand rank stuff is part of the training. Knowing full well that someone with a high grade might not be worth squat, and that someone with a low grade could be highly skilled, one – by necessity – has to look past such trivial matters as rank, and develop a discerning eye for what good martial arts looks like.

    Peachies: “The fact that grades do not always relate to what some peoples perception of 'skill' is, is imho a good thing as it helps see what an empty thing rank is and encourages us to look beyond that.”

    Well said. I tried saying it better myself, and couldn’t.

    Goro: “(Ninjutsu: The Art Of The Invisible Warrior?) Hayes specifically states that it takes 20 yrs. to cover the omote and 20 yrs. to cover the ura aspects of ninja training and also that it would take a lifetime of study to eventually even approach mastery.”

    That’s a fine opinion to have, and he may have been told that by Hatsumi himself. However, what does that have to do with earning grades as a student of an art. Like I’ve said, in my experience, it takes the average shidoshi ten years to reach godan, and I’d imagine it would take another ten to reach judan. That’s 20 years total – so maybe a judan rank only represents the ‘omote.’ Maybe it does take another 20 years after that to be able to understand the inner secrets of ninjutsu.

    Say the average student starts training around age 20-30, after 40 years to grasp both the omote and the ura, they would be 60-70 years old. Would they really have to wait that long before having anything worthwhile to share with others? Compared to the Average Joe, someone training for only 15-20 years *is* a master of martial arts.

    Gary Arthur: “the answer to this is simple. If we as practitioners are not taken seriously then the art of Ninjutsu will die.”

    How do you figure? With the thousands of ninjutsu instructors world-wide, if we as practitioners aren’t taken seriously, then those thousands of instructors would suddenly stop teaching? I don’t get it.

    Maybe you mean, if no one takes the art seriously, then no one would want to start training in it? If that’s what happens, then good. But there will always be someone somewhere that will continue to consider the art worthwhile and take it seriously enough to continue training, even if the practice were outlawed.

    “We have already been ridiculed in Britain by martial arts instructors including the editor/owner of an English martial arts magazine Terry Oneil who has stated quite catergorically that Ninjutsu does not exist.”

    I am very happy to hear this. I wish more people felt the same as Mr. Oneil. Maybe then ninjutsu could regain some of its mystery.

    Did those Brittish martial arts instructors ridicule ninjutsu using ‘The Deadly Raised Eyebrow of Doom’ ™ ?

    “Other martial arts Karate, Judo etc have a great amount of power… Karate, Judo etc are seen as mainstream arts they are taken serious, hence they have a lot of students and therefore have a great amount of power.”

    Good for them. Are you overly concerned with having power? How does it make you feel to not be as powerful as a karate or judo student?

    “If they tried to ban ninjutsu we would be a cry in the wilderness,…”

    Man, it would be like ancient Japan all over again! We would have to train in secret, and live outwardly boring lives, and try not to arouse suspicion. Are you afraid of that happening?

    ”Mind you it would probably never come to having ninjutsu lobbying in support of our art we would probably be too busy argueing amongst ourselves.”

    You’re probably right about that.

    Or... we would be too busy training and living our lives to give a damn.
    Marc McDermand

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    Default Well...

    If Soke does not have a problem with how people are graded how is our buisness?

    I have seen multiple times though Soke quoted as saying it should take 10 years to godan.
    Lance Boggs
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    "The man who can most truly be accounted brave is he who best knows the meaning of what is sweet in life and what is terrible, and then goes out undeterred to meet what is to come."

    Pericles

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