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Thread: Yagyu Shingan ryu (taijutsu, katchu yawara, or yoroi kumiuchi)

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler
    I am not that familiar with the Shinkage-ryu lineages, but in the book metioned above the kanji for both were different. One was called "Divine Shadow" and the other was called "New Shadow." Also, the kanji used for "shadow" were both different.
    Dr. Friday discusses the different ways of rendering "Shinkage" in one of his books. According to him, Kamiizumi used several different sets of characters to write "Shinkage" at various times, occasionally using shin/new, shin/sincere, shin/divine, kage/silhouette, kage/indebtedness. (Legacies of the Sword, 29-33). He also lists a number of different students of Kamiizumi who started their own schools, at least a couple of whom used the "Shinkage" name, but he doesn't include the kanji, so I can't tell which (if any) of them adopted some of the other variations. I don't see the name Koshu or Ryuken anywhere on the family tree that Dr. Friday provides, but the tree does not go past the name of the founder in the case of many of the branches. Or the name could just be staring me right in the face and I'm missing it.
    David Sims

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  2. #47
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    Hmm..Lemme see..
    新陰流 The "basic" one. (Used by the Yagyu Family line).
    神影流 Possibly the one George is referencing.
    真陰流 Another variation. Same pronounciation.
    心蔭流 And the last...So basically use any combination of the above characters to get the same name..3 ways of saying "Kage" and many ways of using "Shin"..
    I'll look again tonight if I remember for Koshu Ryoken in the Shinkage Ryu lines listed in the Daijiten. There are many, many lines shown though..
    Is Koshu 湖州? Or some other name? 甲州?広州? 7
    Regards.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

  3. #48
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler
    Shimazu Kenji would probably agree with Hoshi since all of the first five people you had listed are actually the teachers of Takenaga Hayato.
    I just came across this post on another e-budo thread:

    "Mr. Draeger, in 'Classical Budo', wrote on page 109: 'Ushu Tatewaki founded what would become the Yagyu Shingan Ryu in pre-Edo times. Some generations of headmasters later, in the Edo period, when Takenaga Naoto received official permission from Yagyu Tajima no Kami to name his ryu the Yagyu Shingan Ryu, the martial curriculum was changed."

    This seems to correspond with Shimazu's lineage chart. Any thoughts?
    David Kawazu-Barber
    河津バーバー デイビッド
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouch!
    "Mr. Draeger, in 'Classical Budo', wrote on page 109: 'Ushu Tatewaki founded what would become the Yagyu Shingan Ryu in pre-Edo times. Some generations of headmasters later, in the Edo period, when Takenaga Naoto received official permission from Yagyu Tajima no Kami to name his ryu the Yagyu Shingan Ryu, the martial curriculum was changed."
    Does anyone have any time-line on these guys:

    Ushiu Tatewaki
    Koshiu Kamotsu Doho Ryuken
    Harakawa Jiro Zaemon Mesanobu
    Toda Seigen Nyudo Fujishige

    Hayato was born 1585 and died 1637. Assuming they were his teachers, they would have all lived during his lifetime. If they were preceding headmasters as suggested above, they would have lived in different periods (perhaps).
    David Kawazu-Barber
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouch!
    I just came across this post on another e-budo thread:

    "Mr. Draeger, in 'Classical Budo', wrote on page 109: 'Ushu Tatewaki founded what would become the Yagyu Shingan Ryu in pre-Edo times. Some generations of headmasters later, in the Edo period, when Takenaga Naoto received official permission from Yagyu Tajima no Kami to name his ryu the Yagyu Shingan Ryu, the martial curriculum was changed."

    This seems to correspond with Shimazu's lineage chart. Any thoughts?
    I have heard that Ushiu founded the school Shingan-ryu, but his student changed it so much that the name was changed to Yagyu Shingan-ryu. I have not heard any of the others teachers training under Ushui.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouch!
    Does anyone have any time-line on these guys:

    Ushiu Tatewaki
    Koshiu Kamotsu Doho Ryuken
    Harakawa Jiro Zaemon Mesanobu
    Toda Seigen Nyudo Fujishige
    This is what I've been able to gather so far. I think it is already clear that Toda could not have been Hayato's teacher, as he died when Hayato was 5. If someone can provide dates for the other names on the list, we may be able to crack this. I'm guessing that Draeger was probably right, and that these guys are the headmasters in question. Let's find out.

    Toda Seigen Nyudo Fujishige 1519-1590
    Yagyu Munenori 1571-1646
    Takenaga Hayato 1585-1637
    David Kawazu-Barber
    河津バーバー デイビッド
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  7. #52
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler
    Hayato had many teachers. According to one book written by Osano Jun, he writes that Hayato studied Shinto-ryu (Ushiu Tatewaki), Shinkage-ryu "Divine Shadow" (Koshu Ryuken?), Shuza-ryu (Harakawa Jirozaemon), Toda-ryu (Toda Seigen Nyudo) and Shinkage-ryu (Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori).
    OK. I have just finished cross-referencing all of this with Phil Hinshelwood in Australia and also my contacts here in japan. I think it is safe to say that Hayato founded Yagyu Shingan-ryu. As George noted earlier in this thread, he received instruction from all of the chaps above (refer to quote). It was Ushiu Tatewaki's Shindo-ryu 神道流, that influenced Hayato the most. Araki Mataemon was slightly younger than Hayato, but both were born and died just a few years apart. Whether, the two actually knew each other is unknown. In the Taijutsu lineage (Edo-line), Araki is considered the spiritual father of YSR -- his name appearing on the makimono (ancient scrolls).
    David Kawazu-Barber
    河津バーバー デイビッド
    arakido.org / negishiryu.org

  8. #53
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    Default Araki Mataemon

    I got caught-up in a lengthy discussion today with senior instructors of the Edo-line, concerning the founder of YSR. As you all know, there are two distinct lines of YSR, Sendai (Heiho) and Edo (Taijutsu). There are a number of splinter-groups (all from the Heiho side). The Heiho claims that the founder of YSR was Takenaga Hayato, and Taijutsu claims it was Araki Mataemon. Both Takenaga and Araki, trained under Yagyu Munenori and were masters of the sword. To the best of my knowledge, the makimono (scrolls) in the possession of both branches do not date back to the foundation. In other words, they were written in last two or three hundred years. Now, as I have said in previous posts, Araki holds a spiritual reverence within the Taijutsu lineage. Whether Araki was the actual founder, or not, is unknown. Most sources would say that Takenaga was the founder, but that is largely because there are half-a-dozen splinter groups, all of which, are Sendai-line. I personally, opt for the Takenaga Hayato claim, simply out of convenience. The convenience being, that the headmaster lineage is complete (no void -- as exists in the scrolls of the Edo-line). But, who am I to say. As stated earlier, records on hand were written well after the foundation. It is therefore possible that information was lost -- perhaps the name of the headmaster that succeeded Araki (filling the void).
    David Kawazu-Barber
    河津バーバー デイビッド
    arakido.org / negishiryu.org

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