Both have now been merged.Originally Posted by DDATFUS
Both have now been merged.Originally Posted by DDATFUS
George Kohler
Genbukan Kusakage dojo
Dojo-cho
After reviewing the various websites and online threads concerning the history and lineages of Yagyu Shingan-ryu, I have decided to clarify what seems to be a confusing issue.
Perhaps the most common question – Who founded Yagyu Shingan-ryu? Was it Araki Mataemon or Takenaga Hayato?
The makimono (scrolls) of the Taijutsu lineage, do accredit Araki as the founder, but this should not be taken literally. Araki died in 1634, eighty-four years before Koyama Samon was born (1718). There are therefore only two explanations for this void – either someone is missing from the puzzle [an additional headmaster or two, between Araki and Samon], or Araki holds a different significance.
It is believed in Japan, that Araki was the Spiritual Founder of the school. In other words, his combat methods and philosophy strongly influenced the direction of the style. The actual founder of the Taijutsu lineage is recognized as Koyama Samon.
So, was Hayato the founder of Shingan-ryu?
More than likely, yes – but it is difficult to say for sure.
Another question that pops-up occasionally concerns Ueshiba’s affiliation with Yagyu Shingan-ryu. What is Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu?
It is actually just another name for the Edo-line (Taijutsu) of YSR. Goto was the sixth headmaster of the Taijutsu lineage. Ueshiba studied under a shihan with direct links to Goto. The current headmaster of the so-called Goto-ha, is Kajitsuka Yasushi. Mutoh Masao passed away in 2001. Kajitsuka was his appointed heir.
So, Kajitsuka heads the Edo-line of YSR, but who heads the Sendai-line?
Is it Shimazu Kenji?
No, Hoshi Kunio (Iwate Prefecture) is headmaster of the school (Shimazu sensei was his student).
David Kawazu-Barber
Kamakura, Japan
Mr. Kawazu-Barber, thanks very much for your reply. I had been wondering about that for a while. So, just to make sure that I understand you, the theory is that Takenaga Hayato founded the school, and his student (?) Koyata Samon founded the Edo branch?
As long as we are on the subject of the Yagyu Shingan Ryu, could you answer another question for me? I've been curious about where Yagyu Shingan Ryu fits into the family tree of koryu arts. Do you know what arts influenced the creation of Yagyu Shingan Ryu? Does anyone know where Hayato trained, or what arts he drew on to create his style? I've read that many of the arts that specialize in battlefield grappling are "descendants" of Takenouchi Ryu. Is this true in this case as well? Is much known about Hayato's life?
Sorry to ask so many questions, but when someone who has an inside line to the answers shows up, I just can't help trying to learn more.
David Sims
"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet
My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.
I don't believe there are many links with the Shingan Ryu and the Takeuchi Ryu. Not from what I have seen on this side anyway. The only possible link I can think of is the connection of Shingan Ryu with Araki Mataemon whose Araki Ryu is most certainly connected to the Takeuchi Ryu.
There are some generic similarities with the two schools but nothing that would make me think there is a more direct connection than them both being armoured grappling.
I would be interested to see the response from the Shingan Ryu side as well. If there is any more to that it would be interesting to hear it.
My regards.
Ben Sharples.
智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。
Thanks for the reply. I remember reading that most of the "ranged slashing" schools of swordfighting derive mainly from the Kashima, the Kage, and the Chujo traditions. Besides Takeuchi, do you know of any other major lineages of kogusoku? I'm trying to get a better idea of what the "family trees" look like.
Of course, a lot of the information that I'm after is probably in a source like the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, but given my Japanese language skills, at the moment I'm stuck pestering those who know what they are talking about. Hope y'all don't mind.
David Sims
"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet
My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.
Ben,Originally Posted by fifthchamber
I think you are confusing Araki Mataemon with Araki Mujinsai who is a totally different person. Mataemon studied Yagyu Shinkage-ryu from the Yagyu family and a well known swordsman. Mujinsai trained in Takeuchi-ryu and founded Araki-ryu.
George Kohler
Genbukan Kusakage dojo
Dojo-cho
Hayato had many teachers. According to one book written by Osano Jun, he writes that Hayato studied Shinto-ryu (Ushiu Tatewaki), Shinkage-ryu "Divine Shadow" (Koshu Ryuken?), Shuza-ryu (Harakawa Jirozaemon), Toda-ryu (Toda Seigen Nyudo) and Shinkage-ryu (Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori).Originally Posted by DDATFUS
George Kohler
Genbukan Kusakage dojo
Dojo-cho
Hi George,
Yes entirely. I was mistaken. In which case there are even less links there than I had guessed.
As for Kogusoku, many other ryuha have it and it is not always connected to us...Rarely in fact.
Regards.
Ben Sharples.
智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。
Thanks. I appreciate that those of you who can actually look at the sources are so willing to help.Originally Posted by George Kohler
Thanks. There goes another of my many misconceptions.Originally Posted by fifthchamber
David Sims
"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet
My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.
It depends who you ask. If you asked headmaster Hoshi, he would list the heiho's headmaster lineage like this:Originally Posted by DDATFUS
Takenaga Hayato
Yoshikawa Ichirohzaemon
Itoh Kyuzaburo
Koyama Samon
(etc.)
If you asked Shimazu Kenji the same question, he would say:
Ushiu Tatewaki
Koshiu Kamotsu Doho Ryuken
Harakawa Jiro Zaemon Mesanobu
Toda Seigen Nyudo Fujishige
Yagyu Tajima no Kami Munenori
Takenaga Hayato
Yoshikawa Ichirohzaemon
Itoh Kyuzaburo
Koyama Samon
(etc.)
David Kawazu-Barber
Shimazu Kenji would probably agree with Hoshi since all of the first five people you had listed are actually the teachers of Takenaga Hayato.Originally Posted by ouch!
George Kohler
Genbukan Kusakage dojo
Dojo-cho
Mr. Kohler, you're absolutely right. If I had read your earlier post a little more carefully, I would have caught on to this. The lineage chart I was given by Shimazu sensei's group, lists the five teachers in descending order as part of the headmaster lineage.Originally Posted by George Kohler
It all makes perfect sense.
Best Wishes
DKB
Question regarding Ushiu and Yagyu. You have them both listed as teachers of Shinkage-ryu. What was their relationship, if any? Did Hayato study the same art from both of them?Originally Posted by George Kohler
David Kawazu-Barber
Above question should read Koshiu (Ryoken) and Yagyu -- not Ushiu. Similar names... sorry!
DKB
I am not that familiar with the Shinkage-ryu lineages, but in the book metioned above the kanji for both were different. One was called "Divine Shadow" and the other was called "New Shadow." Also, the kanji used for "shadow" were both different.Originally Posted by ouch!
Sorry, for not being able to answer your question.
George Kohler
Genbukan Kusakage dojo
Dojo-cho