Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 87

Thread: Yagyu Ryu, Shinkage Ryu and Ninjutsu

  1. #1
    aiki-zen Guest

    Default Yagyu Ryu, Shinkage Ryu and Ninjutsu

    In the 16th century, history tells us that Yagyu Sekishusai had a duel with the son of the founder of the Shinkage Ryu style. During the duel, Sekishusai was defeated. According to history, Sekishusai’s art transformed from Yagyu Ryu to become Yagyu Shinkage Ryu based on teachings that he received from Kamiizumi.

    History also indicates that Yagyu Sekishusai married a woman from Iga province, thus relating him the secret society from Iga and Koga provinces.

    My question is related to Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and it’s lineage and the Yagyu’s relationship to Ninja.

    Sekishusai’s son, Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori became Tokugawa Ieyasu, Hidetada, and finally Iemitsu’s instructor and political advisor, yet Yagyu Shinkage Ryu’s lineage shows that he did not retain the secrets of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

    In Japan it is said that because Sekishusai married into Iga, many of the secrets transcended into different forms of Ninjutsu, and onto what we now know as Togakure Ryu as well as Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

    Can anyone confirm whether this is true or only speculation?

    It is also my understanding that the “inka” and the secrets of Sekishusai’s Yagyu Ryu and Kamiizumi’s Shinkage Ryu were passed to Sekishusai’s grandson, rather than Munenori, yet because of the relationship that Sekishusai and Munenori had with the people of Iga, Tokugawa Ieyasu chose Munenori as his teacher because of that relationship.

    Does anyone know whether this fact, fiction or coincidence?

    It would seem like Tokugawa would have chosen Munenori and Sekishusai because of the political and strategic advantages of being associated with a Ninja clan, such as the Iga and Koga ninja. It’s quite interesting and I would like to know if there are any printed materials that may thoroughly explain the associations.

    I am certain opinions will vary, but I would like to hear from Yagyu and Ninjutsu practitioners in regards to the facts.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    45
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Re: Yagyu Ryu, Shinkage Ryu and Ninjutsu

    Originally posted by aiki-zen
    Sekishusai’s son, Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori became Tokugawa Ieyasu, Hidetada, and finally Iemitsu’s instructor and political advisor, yet Yagyu Shinkage Ryu’s lineage shows that he did not retain the secrets of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.
    That's news to me. Munenori did put his little imprint on his branch of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, but it was still Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

    Yagyu is nestled near Iga, but I've never heard of having anything in common with any of the ninjutsu schools that exist today. Some of the "Kage" principles and like waza called "shinobi" and obscure little tricking things you learn might seem familiar to the ninpo guys, but I can't speak for them. The Yagyu's connection to Iga isn't something I've ever asked my sensei about.
    Increase My Killing Power, Eh?
    -Homer Simpson

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    58
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Re: Yagyu Ryu, Shinkage Ryu and Ninjutsu

    Originally posted by aiki-zen
    In the 16th century, history tells us that Yagyu Sekishusai had a duel with the son of the founder of the Shinkage Ryu style. During the duel, Sekishusai was defeated. According to history, Sekishusai’s art transformed from Yagyu Ryu to become Yagyu Shinkage Ryu based on teachings that he received from Kamiizumi.

    History also indicates that Yagyu Sekishusai married a woman from Iga province, thus relating him the secret society from Iga and Koga provinces.

    My question is related to Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and it’s lineage and the Yagyu’s relationship to Ninja.

    Sekishusai’s son, Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori became Tokugawa Ieyasu, Hidetada, and finally Iemitsu’s instructor and political advisor, yet Yagyu Shinkage Ryu’s lineage shows that he did not retain the secrets of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

    Can anyone confirm whether this is true or only speculation?
    Some yes. Most we can't confirm--the best we can do is to look at documents, examine claims of lineage, compare styles, etc.

    Unfortunately, history in traditions like those many of us study are often sketchy and intertwined with apocryphal stories, legends, and events that make it hard to tell fact from fiction.

    As for the various ryuha mentioned--I do not know what their history or tradition states. I am not a student of any of the three ryuha, only a student of history. However, I can make some observations about the Yagyu family from sources I have seen.

    We do know that Yagyu Sekishusai Muneyoshi was the father of Yagyu Munenori, who went on to serve as an instructor to Tokugawa Ieyasu, Tokugawa Hidetada, and Tokugawa Iemitsu.

    Most readings I can find seem to point to Muneyoshi's grandson by his elder son, Yagyu Toshiyoshi, as having gained inheritance of the style from his father, forming Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, while Munenori's school became the Edo Yagyu Shinkage Ryu(1).

    According to William Scott Wilson in his translation "The Life-Giving Sword" (Japanese title: Heiho Kadensho): "Just as important perhaps was that Sekishusai's wife, Shunto Gozen, was a daughter of the Okuhara family, a powerful clan in the nearby area of Iga, famous for the warriors trained in the arts of espionage and assassination called ninja."(2)

    Mr. Wilson goes on to discuss the death of Muneyoshi: "It is interesting in this regard that upon his death, Sekishusai passed the title of head of family on to Munenori, due to his reasonable confidence that the clan would continue under shogunal protection. But he passed the inka and secret written materials he had received from Kamiizumi on to his grandson, Yagyu Hyogonosuke Toshiyoshi (1577-1650), the son of his eldest son, Shinjiro Yoshikatsu, who had been wounded and crippled so many years before."(2) He goes on to talk about how Toshiyoshi went to Nagoya, in Owari, to teach Tokugawa Yoshinao, and how this tradition became the Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

    I've checked Hatsumi Masaaki's "Ninjutsu: History and Tradition"(3), and I do not see anything about Yagyu being influenced by or influencing the Togakure school. However, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, as they say.

    I do believe that there is a lot in the Yagyu history and in Munenori's own words (Heiho Kadensho) appear to advocate techniques that could be labeled as shinobi. I'm trying to find the source, but I recall reading speculation that the Yagyu may have been used by the Tokugawa as a messenger force during the his conflict with Ishida Mitsunari.

    In the Heiho Kadensho, Munenori writes: "Deception is strategy. By the false, the truth is obtained. Deception is such that, even when your opponent is aware of it, he cannot help but be taken in. When you use deception and your opponent is taken in, you defeat him by causing him to be taken in."(2)

    From the history and sources I have seen, I believe that there are large overtones of espionage and deception in the arts of Yagyu Muneyoshi and his decendants. Note that I mean no disrespect by this, only that those things that may be considered shinobi seem to have a place in the teachings of the Yagyu family, back in the 16th and 17th centuries.

    However, I do not see an historical link between the Yagyu and Togakure--these schools may have traditions of a link I am unaware of. Furthermore, I do not see any 'secret' or 'hidden' teachings as having passed out of the Yagyu family into another tradition--history seems to indicate that the full teachings were given to the son and grandson of Yagyu Muneyoshi, and I see no reason to question that.

    Not sure if that helps. I would be interested to see what others have to say, but that's what my sources have. Not sure if it helps or not.

    Sources:
    ---------------------
    (1) 1998; Turnbull, Stephen; "The Samurai Sourcebook"; ISBN 1-85409-523-4.
    (2) 2003; Wilson, William Scott; "The Life-Giving Sword:Heiho Kadensho"; ISBN 4-7700-2955-1.
    (3) 1981; Hatsumi, Masaaki; "Ninjutsu: History and Tradtion"; ISBN 0-86568-027-2.

    I also checked the following books, but did not find any useful information:
    Turnbull, Stephen: "Samurai Warfare" and "The Samurai: A Military History"
    Sinclaire, Clive: "Samurai: The weapons and spirit of the Japanese warrior"
    Sato, Hiroaki: "Legends of the Samurai" (This last had an anecdote about Munenori, but it did not seem pertinent to the question at hand)
    Joshua Badgley
    Member of the Capital Area Budokai
    http://cabudokai.org

    これやこの行くも帰るもわかれつつ
    知るも知らぬも逢坂の関

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    327
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    joshua,
    is the "the samurai sourcebook" different than Samurai the World of the Warrior by stephen turnbull?
    Umar Sesko A. Tri Hananto
    "high quality single man"
    "low profile but high product"

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    58
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Yes, it is a different work. Dr. Stephen Turnbull is a rather prolific author. I find his later stuff better than his earlier works, as well. Some of the things I like about "The Samurai Sourcebook" are the listing of famous samurai, the section on Japanese heraldry, and the list of battles and sieges.
    Joshua Badgley
    Member of the Capital Area Budokai
    http://cabudokai.org

    これやこの行くも帰るもわかれつつ
    知るも知らぬも逢坂の関

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Lubbock, Texas
    Posts
    115
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default no affiliation

    Not everyone in the Iga province studied ninjutsu. Though awareness of ninjutsu in the Iga province was well known.

    Being a student of Togakure Ryu Ninpo 1st through Hatsumi (Soke-Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu) and now through Manaka Unsui (Kancho-Jissen Kobudo Jinenkan) my research in the past 16 years of training does not show an affiliation between Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Togakure Ryu. Though both clans were aware of each other.

    I agree with the findings posted by Mr. Badgely. Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Kenjutsu has aslo been said to be one of the best in it's time.



    Dale Joseph
    Lubbock Kobudo Dojo
    Dale Joseph
    Jinenkan Butoku Dojo

    With "Justice and Unity" as our motto, the Jinenkan will continue to emphasize the fundamentals, faithful to the Densho, in pursuit of natural movement which is as unforced as the flow of clouds and water"... - Manaka Unsui Sensei

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    6,227
    Likes (received)
    118

    Default Re: no affiliation

    Originally posted by kakuma
    ...Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Kenjutsu has aslo been said to be one of the best in it's time.
    This is slightly off topic, but kakuma's post reminded me of it:

    I read a quote once to the effect that "Itto Ryu was known for its precision, Nitto Ryu was known for its strategy, and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu for its psychology."

    Has anyone else seen this, and if so do you know the source?
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  8. #8
    Yagyu-mura Guest

    Default Re: Re: Yagyu Ryu, Shinkage Ryu and Ninjutsu


    According to William Scott Wilson in his translation "The Life-Giving Sword" (Japanese title: Heiho Kadensho): "Just as important perhaps was that Sekishusai's wife, Shunto Gozen, was a daughter of the Okuhara family, a powerful clan in the nearby area of Iga, famous for the warriors trained in the arts of espionage and assassination called ninja."(2)

    Mr. Wilson goes on to discuss the death of Muneyoshi: "It is interesting in this regard that upon his death, Sekishusai passed the title of head of family on to Munenori, due to his reasonable confidence that the clan would continue under shogunal protection. But he passed the inka and secret written materials he had received from Kamiizumi on to his grandson, Yagyu Hyogonosuke Toshiyoshi (1577-1650), the son of his eldest son, Shinjiro Yoshikatsu, who had been wounded and crippled so many years before."(2) He goes on to talk about how Toshiyoshi went to Nagoya, in Owari, to teach Tokugawa Yoshinao, and how this tradition became the Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

    I've checked Hatsumi Masaaki's "Ninjutsu: History and Tradition"(3), and I do not see anything about Yagyu being influenced by or influencing the Togakure school. However, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, as they say.
    I appreciate that you replied with such a thorough response. I meant to list Shunto Gozen, but I didn’t have a copy of the book with me at the time I made the post. I am very interested in Japanese History, Kenjutsu, Yabusame, Chado and sword arts such as Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Katori Shinto Ryu. (Maybe I should just say most forms of Budo)

    I recently finished reading Yagyu Munenori’s book, “The Life-Giving Sword”, which is where I acquired the information on Sekishusai's relationship to Iga. I cross-referenced information that was contained in, "The Life-Giving sword" with information on Togakure Ryu from one of Hatsumi's books and found that Togakure Ryu's origins were from Iga.

    Last year when I visited Japan, I had the opportunity to visit Yagyu-mura. It was an absolutely breath taking experience to see the village during the spring and then later in the autumn. As I sat near Itto-Seki, I remembered reading about a story written in the “Sword and the Mind” that told of Yagyu Muneyoshi's duel with a Tengu.

    Wouldn’t it be cool if they came out with a documentary about the Yagyu, Ninja, and Samurai from a Japanese perspective?
    Last edited by Yagyu-mura; 2nd October 2004 at 12:56.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,654
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Sorry to bust yer chops, Yagyu-mura, but please sign your posts with your full name. Forum rules.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  10. #10
    Yagyu-mura Guest

    Default My Profile

    It's kind of weird, because I did put all of that information in my profile, yet it isn't being displayed. I use vbulletin and PhpBB all of the time and for some reason, my name is not being displayed.

    Best regards,

    Christian J. Estes

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    183
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default I will ask ..

    Hi All,

    Off to Shimizu this week for training and to participate in the Suio Ryu Koden Taikai. Usually the Soke of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu participates, or at leasts attends the Taikai. If he is there I will try to "corner" him (sounds very dangerous to me) and query him. What specific questions would you like asked? (Not that he will answer them but it never hurts to ask.)

    Brian Stokes

  12. #12
    Yagyu-mura Guest

    Default Re: My Profile

    Originally posted by Yagyu-mura
    It's kind of weird, because I did put all of that information in my profile, yet it isn't being displayed. I use vbulletin and PhpBB all of the time and for some reason, my name is not being displayed.

    Best regards,

    Christian J. Estes
    Hmmm, weird, it shows up now.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    6,227
    Likes (received)
    118

    Default Re: Re: My Profile

    Originally posted by Yagyu-mura
    Hmmm, weird, it shows up now.
    But still not with your name. Fortunately it was in your quote.

    Christian, your name is familiar to me. Were you a member here under a different user name not long ago? Or maybe I know you from someplace else?
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Denton, Tx
    Posts
    1,237
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    You need to put your name in the "Signature" text area. user cp->edit profile->signature.

    Nevermind. Seems you figured it out.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  15. #15
    Yagyu-mura Guest

    Default

    Here we go, my most sincere apologies...

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •