heh?? they got 4 versions?? damn....I think I'd better read more
heh?? they got 4 versions?? damn....I think I'd better read more
Umar Sesko A. Tri Hananto
"high quality single man"
"low profile but high product"
I spoke with Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei on Monday at the Nagoya Kobudo Taikai and asked him to clear up some of the issues that have come up on this thread. Most of the answers I knew already, but since none of you reading this know me from Adam, I thought it would be best to go straight to the horse's mouth... besides, it was a good excuse to pick Sensei's brain, although I'm afraid he know thinks I'm an utter idiot for taking some of this stuff seriously enough to ask him about it...
We talked for a long time over coffee after the demonstrations, along with about half of the Nagoya Yagyu Kai's students, including Sensei's most senior students. (I also talked privately with all of the senior students before talking to Sensei).
I tried to relate Mr.Armstrong's story (as told here by Shin Buke) as clearly as I could. Yagyu Sensei listened, then turned to a senior student sitting beside him and said "Did you follow that?"... The problem, however, wasn't that my Japanese was incomprehensible (bad maybe, but not incomprehensible), but that he just couldn't figure out where this story could possibly be coming from... so I went over it again, drawing diagrams on the back of the placemat and all... after much head scratching and hypothosising by the other deshi about how the story could have been mixed up before getting to me, or what Mr.Armstrong could have misinterpreted... Yagyu Sensei said "Look, I'll say it simply... what we do is Shinkage Ryu... Kamizumi Isenokami passed on Shinkage Ryu to Munetoshi (footnote: this means Shinkage Ryu in it's complete form) and that is what we continue to practice... the name YAGYU Shinkage Ryu was created by scholars... very recently... all through the Tokugawa Period it was Shinkage Ryu... Kamiizumi Isenokami taught other people too, and if there were other schools of Shinkage Ryu still around today that would be fine, but there aren't... not that I know of..."
The subject then turned to the liberties that various other people take with the teaching, and that basically, the need they feel to add, change, modify and make stuff up to add to the mystique and make it more appealing basically just shows that they don't truely understand Shinkage Ryu... or budo...
Also, yes... Yagyu Munetoshi practiced Shintou Ryu before he became a student of Kamiizumi Isenokami's, and there simply isn't, and never was, anything called Yagyu-ryu... it's just, as I said before, just a term used by people without good information...
J.M.
This is a great thread! Lots of fantastic info.
Thanks All,
Brian Stokes
There are numerous tales, in popular literature and on film, of the Yagyu as spymasters or engaged in cloaked skullduggery themselves. Probably inspired by these are ambitious attempts to link the clan to groups supposedly devoted to these activities. If there is any historical or verifiable evidence beyond these entertaining fictions, I am unaware of them.I thought the reference by Mr. Lowry, which is true, would have cleared up the Yagyu Ryu claims. As summarized by Mr. Dunn.Also, yes... Yagyu Munetoshi practiced Shintou Ryu before he became a student of Kamiizumi Isenokami's, and there simply isn't, and never was, anything called Yagyu-ryu... it's just, as I said before, just a term used by people without good information...
My understanding is Yagyu Ryu is in fact a ficticious kenjutsu clan, made popular by japanese movies, cartoons and even in well known video games.
Dale Joseph
Jinenkan Butoku Dojo
With "Justice and Unity" as our motto, the Jinenkan will continue to emphasize the fundamentals, faithful to the Densho, in pursuit of natural movement which is as unforced as the flow of clouds and water"... - Manaka Unsui Sensei
Ah ha! so there's no PROOF that the Yagyu family were NOT ninjas!
So there!
J.M.
I think you mean to say that 'Yagyu Ryu is in fact a fictitious sword system'--we know that the clan is real, although you don't have a 'kenjutsu clan'. Sorry for what may seem like pedantry, but 'a fictitious clan' and 'a fictious kenjutsu [system]' are rather different.Originally posted by kakuma
My understanding is Yagyu Ryu is in fact a ficticious kenjutsu clan, made popular by japanese movies, cartoons and even in well known video games.
So, as I understand things now, the Yagyu-ke did not have any official school of martial arts (although they doubtless practiced something to defend themselves). For a while they studied Shintou Ryu, and then studied Shinkage Ryu as taught be Kamiizumi and essentially dropped any previous teachings and handed down Shinkage Ryu as it was taught? Or do they also teach other Ryu, but Shinkage Ryu is just what we've been discussing?
As someone else has mentioned, this has been a very informative and interesting thread, imho. I've really enjoyed reading through it.
Mr. Dunn,
I think I speak on behalf of the readers of this thread who would like to thank you for risking humiliation to answer a few relatively simple questions. Domo arigato.
-Alex Dale
- Alex Dale
I'll second that. This thread's had some interesting things said on it so far.
Increase My Killing Power, Eh?
-Homer Simpson
Actually, what needs to be emphasized is "ficticious". Looking at that particular word, clan or kenjutsu or references to differences really don't matter. However, I do understand your point.I think you mean to say that 'Yagyu Ryu is in fact a fictitious sword system'--we know that the clan is real, although you don't have a 'kenjutsu clan'. Sorry for what may seem like pedantry, but 'a fictitious clan' and 'a fictious kenjutsu [system]' are rather different.
Dale Joseph
Jinenkan Butoku Dojo
With "Justice and Unity" as our motto, the Jinenkan will continue to emphasize the fundamentals, faithful to the Densho, in pursuit of natural movement which is as unforced as the flow of clouds and water"... - Manaka Unsui Sensei
Hey... I risk humiliation everytime I open my mouth...
J.M.
Thanks Mr Dun.
Han
Far too many movies being watched on this thread methinks:
http://www.japanhero.com/profiles/ni...i_profileL.htm
Yagyu village is "nestled near Iga.." ????
PS...
John, look me up man!
Last edited by Mekugi; 30th November 2004 at 18:34.