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Thread: Yagyu Ryu, Shinkage Ryu and Ninjutsu

  1. #16
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    Ah, lucky you, Mr. Stokes. I'll be going next summer to Nagoya to train with Yagyu sensei. Enjoy your trip.

    -Alex Dale
    - Alex Dale

  2. #17
    Yagyu-mura Guest

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    Thank you sir.

    Originally posted by Charles Mahan
    You need to put your name in the "Signature" text area. user cp->edit profile->signature.

    Nevermind. Seems you figured it out.

  3. #18
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    Just thought I'd point out that "deception" does not ninjutsu make. Every fighting art practices deception. In it's most primitive form, faking high and going low is a form of deception. It is fundamental to any kind of fighting. Some arts may rely on it more or may have taken the art of decepton to a very high level of sophistication. But misdirection and trickery are always part of it.

    Hell, a changeup in baseball, or a draw play or a play-fake in football, are all forms of deception. But baseball and football don't have anything to do with ninjas.
    Earl Hartman

  4. #19
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    Default questions

    Hi guys,

    Questions for Brian, and eric,

    Brian, which Yagyu soke do you mean, owari, edo, yamato, just curious?

    And Eric,
    Do you train Yagyu in FL, and if so is it with David Walter?

    But as to the original topic according to our soke, there is no link between yagyu shin kage ryu and ninpo. Yagyu shin kage ryu is an art for the samurai class, not taught to those outside the ryu or commoners (using terms of those times)
    Having trained bujinkan, and yagyu shin kage ryu I can tell you yagyu looks nothing like ninpo, sword, kamae, empty hand etc.
    Paul Manogue
    Yagyu Shin Kage Ryu Hyo Ho
    www.yagyu-ryu.com
    Aikido
    www.renseikandojo.com

  5. #20
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    Default No Idea

    Hi Paul,

    HAven't got a clue. Antony Cundy simply introduced him to me as the Souke of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. I will ask which line he represents if I get a chance to meet him again.

    Brian

  6. #21
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    Mr. Manogue:

    I know you didn't ask, but I guess it would be right of me to clarrify. I'll be going to Nagoya to train with Yagyu Nobuharu, the 21st soke of the Owari Yagyu Shinkage-ryu heiho lineage.


    -Alex Dale
    - Alex Dale

  7. #22
    Yagyu-mura Guest

    Default Wow...

    I had no idea there were so many "Soke" for the various forms of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. I was under the impression there was only one soke for all and that he received the "inka" as did Muneyashi's grandson.

    Who are the soke for each derivative...

  8. #23
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    Default ninjutsu and Shinkage-ryu

    Oh god... I'm being dragged out of lurker status...
    The chimerical link between ninja and the Yagyu's is big in Japan too... but it's comic book stuff... the idea that the Yagyus ran a secret spy network for the Tokugawas is a common theme in comics and TV dramas in Japan, but like I say... it's comic book stuff... the idea is nothing new under the sun, and nothing really to get excited about...
    I'm just trying to head off someone running up and tugging on Yagyu sensei's kimono sode and going "hey... were... like... you guys really ninjas?"
    And by the way... "The Sword and the Mind" is crap...

    and in case I screwed up my profile, my name is John Mark Dunn
    J.M.

  9. #24
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    Hi Dale, I am not doubting you here:
    Though both clans were aware of each other.
    Just curious on where/who/how...?

    Also in A Dave Lowry book I have, He mentions a past relationship with Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, and Ninjutsu(The physical side, not ninpo). And states that the techniques have mostly been lost.

    and David:
    But as to the original topic according to our soke, there is no link between yagyu shin kage ryu and ninpo. Yagyu shin kage ryu is an art for the samurai class, not taught to those outside the ryu or commoners (using terms of those times)
    So people in the TSKSR were samurai too...you know where I am going with this right?

    Thanks,
    Jon Gillespie

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Wow...

    Originally posted by Yagyu-mura

    Who are the soke for each derivative...
    Without getting into the whole origin of the split that created the Owari and Edo branches, the only two guys I know of are Yagyu Nobuhara Sensei of the Yagyukai (Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu) and Sono Seiko Sensei of the Yamato Yagyu Kai (Edo Yagyu Shinkage Ryu).
    Increase My Killing Power, Eh?
    -Homer Simpson

  11. #26
    Yagyu-mura Guest

    Default Re: ninjutsu and Shinkage-ryu

    Originally posted by John Mark Dunn
    Oh god... I'm being dragged out of lurker status...
    The chimerical link between ninja and the Yagyu's is big in Japan too... but it's comic book stuff... the idea that the Yagyus ran a secret spy network for the Tokugawas is a common theme in comics and TV dramas in Japan, but like I say... it's comic book stuff... the idea is nothing new under the sun, and nothing really to get excited about...
    I'm just trying to head off someone running up and tugging on Yagyu sensei's kimono sode and going "hey... were... like... you guys really ninjas?"
    And by the way... "The Sword and the Mind" is crap...

    and in case I screwed up my profile, my name is John Mark Dunn
    I thought the “Sword and the Mind” was an excellent book. That’s cool though. I am certain you have a much more informed opinion of YSR’s history, so I’m certain that my opinions will change over time. Often as we become more in tune, we tend to reevaluate our choices and interests. I suppose approaching the “Soke” of the art is not exactly and good idea for a junior student, so I agree with you.

    In regards to Yagyu, I honestly believe that the Yagyu did have a relationship with Iga and that some Yagyu may have been trained in their ways. It make perfect sense why the “kojiki” or records don’t reflect this as it may have been a problematic for the Tokugawa, if other Samurai discovered such a relationship did exist.

    Of course, since there is no ancient record proving that there was such a relationship, it night be safe to assume that the relationship between Tokugawa and Sekishusai and his son Munenori was initially established based on certain strategic advantages.

    If you were Tokugawa Ieyasu and you had to establish such a relationship, what would be your motives for selecting Yagyu over someone such as Miyamoto Musashi? It’s my understanding that Musashi was sought by the Hosokawa to petition the shogun to become his instructor, but Musashi refused.

    It seems apparent as to why, since Musashi did battle at Sekigahara on the side of Toyotomi.

  12. #27
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    Just curious on where/who/how...?
    I am at the office right now and don't have that info right now and instead of relying on memory. I would rather give exact information. This will be anserwed later.
    Also in A Dave Lowry book I have, He mentions a past relationship with Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, and Ninjutsu(The physical side, not ninpo).
    Dave Lowry is no doubt a respected martial artist and is knowledgeable about kenjutsu. But I have yet to prove this. I have not seen any information that proves this relationship existed.
    And states that the techniques have mostly been lost.
    I am confused as to what techniques you are in reference to. Please explain.



    Dale Joseph
    Lubbock Kobudo Dojo
    Dale Joseph
    Jinenkan Butoku Dojo

    With "Justice and Unity" as our motto, the Jinenkan will continue to emphasize the fundamentals, faithful to the Densho, in pursuit of natural movement which is as unforced as the flow of clouds and water"... - Manaka Unsui Sensei

  13. #28
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    I am confused as to what techniques you are in reference to. Please explain.
    Me too, again I read this in Persimmon Wind.
    He (Mr. Lowry) jokingly expalins an encounter with an older woman, and the conversation, turned toward the Yagyu family and ninjutsu. Basically, the woman recalls a "ninjutsu" technique used for centuries from the village. Japanese windows are squeaky, so getting in and out of a residence without noise, could be a problem. The woaman explained how not only ninja, but young men sneaking into a girlfriend's house would urinate on the sliding part to quiet the noise...pretty funny actually.
    Jon Gillespie

  14. #29
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    Basically, the woman recalls a "ninjutsu" technique used for centuries from the village.
    Then my next question would be what technique and why the reference to ninjutsu?

    Was it a technique that seemed that it could have been used by Iga ninja. Though interesting and very humorous, this is extremely vague.

    Another question would be where is the source of this information that Mr. Lowry received. These are theories or parables (basically ideas, information or stories that cannot be proven).


    Dale Joseph
    Lubbock Kobudo Dojo
    Dale Joseph
    Jinenkan Butoku Dojo

    With "Justice and Unity" as our motto, the Jinenkan will continue to emphasize the fundamentals, faithful to the Densho, in pursuit of natural movement which is as unforced as the flow of clouds and water"... - Manaka Unsui Sensei

  15. #30
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    Is it just me...or is someone being dense???

    RT

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