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Thread: Yagyu Ryu, Shinkage Ryu and Ninjutsu

  1. #61
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    Mr. Lowry


    Interesting story of the wolf following a person then vanish.

    Dovetails pretty neatly into a number of Western stories--mainly in the British Isle's, of a "black dog" that followed people on isolated roads.

    Sometimes an evil omen.

    But for the most part also seen as protecting.

    Can't remember the author, but there was a book published that listed a large number of such stories.

    Think the title was actually "Black Dog."


    Chris Thomas

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    Hi Mr. Lowry,

    Thanks for the info on Japanese wolves. Quite interesting! I personally think that Komagawa fought a pack of wild dogs instead of wolves, but that is the story in the makimono that Kuroda Sensei has.

    The point about the fight was not that Kamiizumi was impressed that Komagawa fought off some animals, but that Komagawa had finally realized he was perfoming the techniques incorrectly because of his left-handedness.

    For what it's worth, the first tachi kata a student learns in Komagawa Kaishin Ryu, is called "Yodare Sukashi", or "Wiping away the drool/slaver" of the wolves/dogs/angry squirrels that attacked Komagawa.
    John Bullard
    Shinbukan Texas Keikokai

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    Thanks for that follow-up Mr. Lowry! Almost as good as one of your books...I didn't realize that the Japanese wolf was that small. I seem to remember seeing a photo of the last known Japanese wolf shot, but I can't remember where...probably Joe Svinth dug it up.

    Ron

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    Sorry, I had *!!!* u *me* d you'd read the book. My appologies if either post of mine was out of line.
    No apologies needed. It is understandable. I also assumed that you read the entire thread.

    and everything was deeeeeep, looooow stances, and you couldn't raise the sword above your head because of the helmet...
    Now that is true koryu style kenjutsu. It is extremely difficult to relay this information to inexperience and experience martial artist that think that anything with a sword and is not called kendo is koryu. Thanks Mr. Dunn for reiterating this fact.

    I teach Kukushinden Ryu and Togakure Ryu bikenjutsu which have deep and low postures associated with it's movement. Where we are ridiculed for being to low and deep and not effective by other Kenjutsu ryu-ha. For example daijodan is with the sword at a 45 degree angle. Why, specifically because of the helmet.

    It is rather funny when some of my students have been challenged to this fact they cannot seem to effectively show a method that can defeat these types of postures or movement.

    Has anyone practicing koryu kenjutsu (specifically with low and deep postures) run into this type of situtation?
    Dale Joseph
    Jinenkan Butoku Dojo

    With "Justice and Unity" as our motto, the Jinenkan will continue to emphasize the fundamentals, faithful to the Densho, in pursuit of natural movement which is as unforced as the flow of clouds and water"... - Manaka Unsui Sensei

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    I have an image, thought this was a pic of the last, but it's actually a picture of a wolf caught at Fukui castle grounds. Not very terrifying looking is he?

  6. #66
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    Decline...! I'd have thought it was the other way around. Koryu arts are in vogue these days, are they not? I also find this "spiritual sense" concept rather vague and confusing. I have read a number of articles by Mr. Armstrong and I take it that what is really being refered to here is "combativeness" (and the lack thereof) as he would use it...correct?
    Yes, this is what I meant by a "spiritual" death. I didn't mean for it to sound religious or mystical or anything, I simply used the term because the "spirit" of the koryu bujutsu revolves around mortal combat. The unfortunate truth is that, while the koryu may be "in vogue" and all, Hunter believes that they are facing an ever increasing trend of "spiritual" death. That is to say that many people who are practicing and even teaching the koryu (Japanese or gaijin) do not see them as living (vague term #2 ^_~) combative systems and instead view them and practice them as artifacts. Now, say what you will about their populariy, but I would argue that it is far better for a koryu to live than for it to be relegated to "museum piece" status.

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    Sorry, I didn't quite follow this...
    It is rather funny when some of my students have been challenged to this fact they cannot seem to effectively show a method that can defeat these types of postures or movement.
    J.M.

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    Default Re: but what about the niiiiiinjas?

    Originally posted by John Mark Dunn
    ...It's probably good to know that Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is actually Shinkage Ryu, and the "Yagyu" affix has come about through the historical connection, not because Yagyu Munetoshi Sekishusai considered himself to have begun something new....
    Unless I'm mistaken, that should be Yagyu Muneyoshi, not Munetoshi.

    Also, I believe that it would be proper to consider Yagyu Shinkage Ryu as distinct from Shinkage Ryu, because, as I understand it, Yagyu Ryu and Kamiizumi Ise-no-Kami's Shinkage Ryu were melded into one system by Muneyoshi.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Unless I'm mistaken, that should be Yagyu Muneyoshi, not Munetoshi.
    It's traditionally pronounced Munetoshi in the Owari line... likewise Yagyu Toshitoshi versus Toshiyoshi...

    Also, I believe that it would be proper to consider Yagyu Shinkage Ryu as distinct from Shinkage Ryu, because, as I understand it, Yagyu Ryu and Kamiizumi Ise-no-Kami's Shinkage Ryu were melded into one system by Muneyoshi
    I wrote it how it was explained to me by Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei... As for blending Yagyu Ryu and Shinkage Ryu... I've never heard of Yagyu Ryu, except as kind of a vauge term for Yagyu Shinkage Ryu used by people without a lot of specific knowledge about the subject... Yagyu Munetoshi was trained mostly in Shintou Ryu... However, Munetoshi certainly did continue to develop Shinkage Ryu both before the line was passed on to him (developing the mutou dori as an assignment from Kamiizumi Isenokami) and after.
    J.M.

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    Originally posted by John Mark Dunn
    ...I've never heard of Yagyu Ryu, except as kind of a vauge term for Yagyu Shinkage Ryu used by people without a lot of specific knowledge about the subject... Yagyu Munetoshi was trained mostly in Shintou Ryu...
    I may have been misinformed. I was told that Yagyu Muneyoshi was a master of the Tomita Ryu, and also carried on the art of Yagyu Ryu as taught to him by his father, Yagyu Ieyoshi.

    Thank you for the clarification; I would, obviously, defer to Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei's knowledge about his own family's art.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    I was told that Yagyu Muneyoshi was a master of the Tomita Ryu, and also carried on the art of Yagyu Ryu as taught to him by his father, Yagyu Ieyoshi.
    Well there is not always just ONE correct answer. I will ask Yagyu sensei tomorrow....
    J.M.

  12. #72
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    Originally posted by John Mark Dunn
    Well there is not always just ONE correct answer. I will ask Yagyu sensei tomorrow....
    Thank you for taking the time. I appreciate your help.

    I know what you mean about never having just one answer; it seems that when it comes to anything Japanese there are no absolutes -- I'm trying to learn the language right now, and there seem to be almost as many exceptions to rules as in English.

    Regarding Muneyoshi vs. Munetoshi, I have a book by someone who is quite respected as a writer and as a Budoka who says Munetoshi was the fourth son of Muneyoshi, and thus the next older brother of Munenori. I've never seen that mentioned elsewhere; my other texts always mention only Yoshikatsu, who was severely wounded at Tatsuichi, and Munenori (and occasionally two un-named sons who became priests).

    If I do an internet search on "Yagyu Muneyoshi" I get several listings saying he was also known as Sekishusai, and if I search on "Yagyu Munetoshi" I also get several listings saying he was also known as Sekishusai, but also a line saying "Do you mean 'Yagyu Muneyoshi'?"

    It seems even the Internet is confused.

    -----

    Originally posted by John Mark Dunn
    ...I've never heard of Yagyu Ryu, except as kind of a vauge term for Yagyu Shinkage Ryu used by people without a lot of specific knowledge about the subject...
    Speaking of the Internet, today I came across the Yamato Yagyu Kai's Website, and found this:

    Yagyu-ryu refers to the family sword style of the Yagyu family. Although in general usage people refer say Yagyu-ryu, it is actually not one style but an umbrella word for a collection of martial traditions that can all trace their lineage or techniques back to the Yagyu family line...

    and:

    ...When Muneyoshi incorporated Shinkage-ryu into his existing body of martial knowledge, his style became known as Yagyu Shinkage-ryu.

    You've probably seen that before, but I thought I'd pass it on.

    Anyway, thanks once again for your input -- as well as thanks to all others with relevant information who post here.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  13. #73
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    Like I said before... Munetoshi is how it was/is pronounced in Owari, and Muneyoshi is the Edo pronunciation...

    I've done some web searches myself of keywords such as "Shinkage" or "Yagyu" and found a plethora of groups purporting to be teaching Yagyu Shinkage Ryu... MOST of the information that I read was correct in the broad strokes, but contained... in my ever so humble opinion... some misleading stuff too... and those that contained photos... well... hmmmmm...

    I wouldn't put a great deal of faith in what you see on the internet... and for that matter in writers in general... "the Sword and the Mind" for instance is an adequate translation of Yagyu Munenori's "Heihou Kadensho"... but for someone who practices the school, it's pretty clear that the translater just doesn't know diddly about Shinkage Ryu and his references are also scholars with no practical knowledege of the school... it's kind of like writing on Delta Blues music if you've never even heard it and don't know what "get my hambone boiled" refers to... "The Lives of Master Swordsmen", as I recall, was pretty good historically (that is it fits with what I know), if you cut out his ventures into explaining the philosophy of the school...

    But pronunciation and historical minutia aside... what matters is the practice... If you know all about it, but you can't do it, then basically, you don't know it...
    J.M.

  14. #74
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    Oh yeah... Yagyu Munetoshi was a supporter of the Ashikaga Shogunate, and when they got spanked, he changed his name to Sekishusai and gave up his political/military career... but all those guys had... like... a half dozen different names at different times in their life, so it's... like... really confusing...
    J.M.

  15. #75
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    Just got a reply from Hunter regarding various things koryu. Here's what he had to say:

    As for Shinkage Ryu / Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, at the same time they are both the same and different. The original Shinkage Ryu, as it was founded under Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, was/is a sogo bujutsu—an integrated battlefield combative system—and includes yari, tachi, odachi, kogusoku, naginata, bo, etc. The Yagyu family was taught only the tachi (kenjutsu), and they added on other attributes over time. Eventually, the full Shinkage Ryu syllabus of Kamiizumi was also brought into the Yagyu family course of instruction. However, the distinction between the Yagyu and Shinkage versions were/are maintained. In kenjutsu, for example, the most well known kata is called Sangaku-en. There are actually two Yagyu versions of Sangaku-en - Edo and Owari. In addition, there are two Shinkage Ryu versions - koden ("old transmission") and odachi. While there are similarities among all the versions, they are still kept distinct. All four are still maintained and kept distinct within the Kanbe line and possibly the Yagyu family line as well.

    Both the Yagyu family line and the Kanbe line are members of the same koryu organizations in Japan and often do enbu at the same taikai. However, for reasons of etiquette, the Kanbe line is always introduced as Owari Kan Ryu, which is the spear tradition that is also part of its tradition.
    Kind of an interesting situation. I hope this was as informative to everyone as it was to me.

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