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Thread: Kwestionable "Ken jutsu"

  1. #106
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    Originally posted by Kenji Fujiwara

    You missed the point silly boy. If you are willing to make fun of someone and the target of your ridicule gets pissed, you should be prepared to use your martial skills.

    I'm in Totonto and Cambridge from time to time and would be willing to let you test your skills. [/B]
    ...are you going to show up there and chop him up in little pieces with a katana or did you develop a bullet evading technique?
    Common guys...hmmm...make love not war?!
    Marko Lukic

  2. #107
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    Mr. Thomas,

    Simply put, there are consequences to behaviour. If you ridicule someone, you should be prepared for the consequences.

    I guess that is why the most dangerous MA practioners that I know are very humble and polite.

  3. #108
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    K Cantwell


    "I say again what happned was people thought they had another easy target to mock and found out he wasnt that easy."

    See, thats not my read at all.

    The way I look at it was a guy got nailed for some weird and questionable practices.

    He was called on it.

    Got all self rightous and attempted to lecture a group of folks that actually know what they are doing and got slapped around (verbally speaking)for his highly suspect and tellingly abrasive attempts to "bluster it out."

    His own statements don't make all that much sense--as I pointed out.

    Upto and including what appears to be more than a bit of "spin" involving his current combat status---from what I gather he is no-where near "Bagdad" as he claimed.

    I also should point out that he is not alone on this forum as having military experience--or as a bouncer (although what either has to do with sword work escapes me)

    Could always be wrong of course. Would not be the first time.

    Chris Thomas

  4. #109
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    Kenji

    I agree, problem is that still has nothing to do with being right or wrong.

    Getting your butt kicked by an oaf don't make you wrong.

    Being able to kick someones butt don't make you right.

    At a certain point a person might just choose "right" over "polite."

    I disagree with some of what Dragonson has posted, not mocking him personally---just don't think what he wrote makes much sense.

    Not going to say it does just to be polite.

    (although to be accurate I was not one of the folk he got ugly with)

    Chris Thomas

  5. #110
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    Hello Chris,

    I think your take on what happened is completely valid. It's just that it reminded me of what went on in the Krappy Katana Kamae free-for-all. People actually spent time surfing the net to find pictures of people they could mock. I was amazed at the detail with which some could critique entire schools from one picture of one student. There is a lousy picture of me from training two years ago on the net somewhere. (It wasn't my decision to post it; it was from a Kagami Biraki demonstration.) There are a number of things wrong with my execution, from posture to tenouchi. I would hate to think that from that one picture of one moment in one technique, the sum total of my training would be judged. Yet, that is what seems to happen on a regular basis here, at least recently.

    I am fortunate to be training with a legitimate koryu group with verifiable and vibrant ties to Japan. I'm not so sure that such status frees me up to cast aspersions on what others do. As long as they are up front (which may be an issue in this case), and the adult students go in with their eyes open, who am I to tell them they shouldn't be doing it? If this guy wants to do kiri-otoshi with an axe handle, God bless him. Now, if he starts saying that such a technique existed in Japan 350 years ago, and his ninja uncle passed it on to him, I would have something to say. If people knowingly want to train with him, that is their choice. My training is more "legitimate," but does that take away from their enjoyment of what they do?

    Your comments on Mr. Stansell's statements are well taken. I've got to go back and reread them.



    Kevin cantwell
    Last edited by K. Cantwell; 18th November 2004 at 22:39.

  6. #111
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    Originally posted by cxt
    Kenji

    I agree, problem is that still has nothing to do with being right or wrong.

    Getting your butt kicked by an oaf don't make you wrong.

    Being able to kick someones butt don't make you right.

    At a certain point a person might just choose "right" over "polite."

    I disagree with some of what Dragonson has posted, not mocking him personally---just don't think what he wrote makes much sense.

    Not going to say it does just to be polite.

    (although to be accurate I was not one of the folk he got ugly with)

    Chris Thomas
    Mr. Thomas,

    I'm not sure what you mean by right or wrong in this case. The original object of ridicule has stated that his MA is derived from whatever. As Mr. Cantwell has stated, who are we to judge. If he knocks the stuffing out of whoever for mocking him, he will have proven that his skills are better.

    If you choose to be right rather than polite, be prepared to use your martial skills.

    If memory serves me correctly, the originator of this thread defended a fat @$$ frizzy haired budo bimbette when it was pointed out that she had invited a person with questionable lineage to demonstrate at a sword show. BTW I had a opportunity to view a video of some of the "MA" demos prestented at that show. Very unique stuff.

  7. #112
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    Originally posted by K. Cantwell
    You are still missing my point. How about:

    1.) Silly pictures> decorum and maturity
    If you see a silly picture, you just have to make comments?

    My real point though is that if you want to make comments on the silly pictures, that's fine. Just don't complain when the victim takes issue with it. That is really my point. You can jump up and down and denigrate the pictures all you want. You may even say "They asked for it." But can't Mr. Stansell avail himself of the same logic to defend his counterattack?

    I still can't see how just positng a picture gives someone carte blanche to be obnoxious.

    Kevin Cantwell
    Hi Mr.Cantwell,

    So, if I understand you correctly, you feel that since some of us poked fun at some goofy pictures on the internet, that an implicit threat to a forum member was not only warranted but expected? If so, I must disagree. I kind of believe in the freedom to voice my opinion without having to endure a personal threat.

    Additionally, by joining into the discussion yourself, and referring to our comments variously as "buffoonery", "schoolboy barbs", "obnoxious bile", etc., you have cast your judgement upon us based on what we have publicly disseminated-- in a manner very similar to how we cast our judgements on his mockery of arts that we take very seriously.

    Whether or not we are right or wrong to voice our opinions doesn't seem to be the issue here. We have the right to voice our opinions, and it is protected by law (at least in the US). What seems to be the problem here is that you think we are hypocrits because we objected to his response. To this, I would reiterate that making personal threats of violence is not only immoral, it's illegal.

    If he were to reply to the original posts by saying "hey, I don't appreciate your ridicule, it's not nice", maybe I would have felt bad, but that isn't what happened. What happened is he came to the forum, made a thinly veiled threat against a minor, spoke out against the entire readership of the forum, and used his service to the military like it's some sort of trading card that can be used to garner respect or fear.

    I take exception to every single part of his response. His photographs are a mockery of budo and his personal threats and attempt to use his military service to intimidate are a discredit to everyone who has worn a military uniform, myself included. Frankly, I'm surprised that you are defending his response, you seem like a reasonable person.

    Please notice that I responded to your referring to us as low minded hypocrites not by challenging you to a duel or threatening you with violence, instead choosing to post a logical argument against your opined comments. If he had responded in this manner to begin with, there likely would not have been a problem.

    Best Regards,
    Bernard "Etch" Echiverri
    Bernard B. Echiverri

  8. #113
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    Simply put, there are consequences to behaviour. If you ridicule someone, you should be prepared for the consequences.
    If memory serves me correctly, the originator of this thread defended a fat @$$ frizzy haired budo bimbette when it was pointed out that she had invited a person with questionable lineage to demonstrate at a sword show. BTW I had a opportunity to view a video of some of the "MA" demos prestented at that show. Very unique stuff.
    So, if you put these two statements of yours together Mr. Fujiwara, you have just ridiculed not only the show's organizer, but John Ray, Greg Huff, Scott Irey, Tony Alvarez, James Williams, and myself. We all did "unique stuff" at that sword show you are talking about.

    So, are you prepared for the consequences? Gonna look over your shoulder wondering if you're going to meet up with one of us? Lucky for you that most of those you just ridiculed are very talented and experienced martial artists. They will most likely just laugh at you. Of course, there are some that may not!

    Mr. Cantwell,
    If I put goofy pictures of myself on the internet, yes I would expect them to be laughed at by someone somewhere.

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  9. #114
    Kenji Fujiwara Guest

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    Mr. Smith,

    You are invited to train with me any time that you are in Philly. If I get a chance to travel to DFW, I will undoubtedly look you up.

  10. #115
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    Mr. Echiverri,

    It seems that we are playing a "What came first?" game, and therefore the argument centers around who was actually justified in their actions. I guess the number and fierceness of the comments made, without solicitation, by members here disappointed me. I think I reacted to this thread differently from the way I have to other such threads.

    Also, I don't see any mockery of the arts in those pictures. Is it the fact that he is comparing swordsmanship to wielding an axe that is aggravating everybody? I, too, take my training seriously. I also study with a teacher that spent 26 years in Japan and has published extensively on the importance of legitimacy in the Japanese combative arts. I don't see how allowing these guys to pound on each other in Louisiana is an affront to Japanese arts. They use the term "kenjutsu", but they seem to be pretty upfront about what they are doing. If I missed it, please point me in the right direction, and I will ammend my position, but I didn't see any outrageous claims being made by Mr. Stansell as to his pedigree. It may be some wacky stuff that he is doing, but what qualifies us to be the arbiters of good and bad arts? You can make the call on "legitimate" or "bogus" pretty easily. I have no idea what the "flavor" of Mr. Stansell's stuff is, so I can't really judge it one way or the other. It doesn't sound, on the surface, that it would be for me, but that is not to say that some guys aren't having a grand old time swinging their axe handles.

    Perhaps it just the way I do things, but I really consider the consequences of my actions before I do or say something. I was raised to believe that much that happens in my life is a result of my own decisions; in essence "my fault." I don't mean this in a negative way, just that I tend to look at things that way. The consequences of the "poking fun" in this case were quite dire. (I would also argue that some post were not "poking fun" but rather quite acrimonious.) The consequences of taunting and mocking someone may be quite different from what you consider to be right under the law. I would have thought these consequences out before I made any comments on the pictures. I felt the attack was unwarranted on Mr. Stansell, and took issue with the members that made it. If, in your evaluation, the attack was warranted, than my rebuttal would be out of line.

    You seem to be standing more on ceremony that the reality of interpersonal relationships, at least as I have experienced them. You have every right to voice your opinion that I am a jackass and my wife is the illegitimate offspring of a monkey and a goat. (Currently, I am quite sensitive to the "opinion" argument, as it is becoming clear to me that most people put more stock in the right to an opinion than the substance of the opinion itself.) By the book, I guess my reaction should be "Well, this fine gentleman is just exercising his First Amendment right to free speech. As a patriotic American, I will refrain from popping him one and attempt to ascertain from whence this opinion comes." I think your idea that he should have responded to some of the comments with "That is not nice" is idealistic at best. It's not a Constitutional Law class, but an Internet forum. The guy just had his school and his personal integrity attacked. His reaction was, shall we say, non-textbook, but then again, it was to be expected. Reason doesn't always rule, not matter how much we would like it to.

    I'm having a problem with the imposition of cordiality on Mr. Stansell's response instead of taking issue with the initial comments themselves. Why is it incumbent upon Mr. Stansell to meet “Makes me laugh every time I see McDojo like this. Do they really think they are legitimate?" with anything other than like bitterness? Why do you hold Mr. Stansell to a higher standard than the initiating members of this debacle? The ease with which those initial damning comments are being dismissed here is quite baffling to me. What do you guys see in those pictures that I can't?

    "If he had responded in this manner to begin with, there likely would not have been a problem."

    If the members here had not given their unsolicited opinion of Mr. Stansell's art it never would have happened either. ('If Woody had gone straight to the police.....) What makes you think his passion is any less fervent than mine or yours?

    I think this is one of those deals that rests on your position on these basic premises:

    1.) Posting pictures on the Internet opens you to any and all criticism the public desires to make.
    2.) Mr. Stansell is guilty of an affront to the Japanese combative arts and deserved the broadside he received.

    I think we differ at the heart of the matter.

    Kevin Cantwell
    Last edited by K. Cantwell; 19th November 2004 at 00:36.

  11. #116
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    After reading through this entire thread, I have to say that I believe there is a fundamental difference between mocking (of any kind) and threats of physical violence to one's person. If the gentleman in question had responded to this thread with the same verbal vitriol used to mock his posted pictures (e.g. "You guys suck and my school rules," "Your teacher is a fraud," "I'm more handsome than you," etc.) I wouldn't have thought anything of it. That response would be, as Mr. Cantwell asserts, quite expected. However, I cannot expand that justification to include threats against one's personal safety. Mr. Stansell said:

    "Your wish has been granted Alex Dale. I am currently fighting insurgents in Iraq but I'll be back state side around the end of 2005 or the beginning of 2006. Then, you can come speak to me as much as you want, OR... I'll be more than happy to come see you when I get back to the states.
    Since you and the rest of these "digital martial artists" don't have anything better to do than to bash other people in this pathetic thread, perhaps you can find the time to except my challenge since you and a few others in here have personally insulted my honor.
    We will settle this "the old way".
    Don't worry little man... I won't leave you hanging either.
    We have a date; count on it."

    It's difficult for me to read the above as anything less than a threat to Mr. Dale's person. This is not within the same realm as verbal sparring, and in my opinion was inappropriate. Of course this is only my opinion, but I should make it clear that if anyone reading this dares to mock me for it, I most assuredly will NOT come and try to beat you up.
    Brett A. Charvat

  12. #117
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    Mr. Charvat,

    Your analysis is absolutely correct. Threats of physical violence do outweigh verbal insults on the "no-no" scale. The only explanation I can give for my position (becoming more tenuous in my own mind by the minute) is that in my experience, the verbal taunt was always followed up with some sort of invitation to "the dance", so to speak. I didn't grow up in a particularly bad area, or attend bad universities (undergrad in Albany, New York, and graduate studies in Spain), but the two seem to go hand and hand in my mind. I never feel like I am going to get away with making fun of someone. Maybe that is why I'm quite the sarcastic twit with my friends. I know they are not going to punch my lights out for a wisecrack. Maybe it is timidity on my part, but I am always very careful about what I say to people. I always feel the worst is possible, so better to just keep the obnoxious comment to myself.

    It seemed quite obvious to me that Mr. Stansell was going to react the way he did, especially on the Internet. I don't think this would have gone down this way in person.

    I'm still not convinced that the initial posters don't bear some of the blame, but I see now what got some of the later posters so riled up in Mr. Stansell's response.

    Kevin Cantwell

  13. #118
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    Well, I must have missed this thread until someone reported this thread. Several are on vacation for breaking the rules.

    Closing thread.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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