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Thread: Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu and Muso Shinden-ryu

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    Default Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu and Muso Shinden-ryu

    Can someone enlighten me on the differences if any between Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu and Muso Shinden-ryu. Thanks
    J Pham

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    If you knew the three first levels of one of them, shoden, chuden, okuden, you would perhaps receive some enlightened answers on
    differences and similiarities, as it would be possible to use your anticipated knowledge as a frame of reference.
    If not, this will be a highly academic discussion.

    if you have qualified instruction available in one of these arts, go for it.

    As these arts have been discussed quite regularly, at least in my years on this forum, I guess you will receive few and perhaps halfhearted responses. I may be wrong.


    The major difference is perhaps with availability, MSR is mostly done by znkr-affiliated people, and access to "the whole system" is more severly restricted than it seems to be in the smaller and more individually run MJER "filials" worldwide.

    It seem like most people in msr train mainly solokata, while I have the impression that many mjer-people do the paired kata as a integral part of practise at a much earlier stage.
    Roar Ulvestad

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    Default You say potato, and I say potahto

    It's a bit like the relationship between English and American language. Very similar, but each has its idiosyncracies. Examples: The noto is different, and the sageo is tied to the fusa-himo differently.
    Aage Bakken

    Ki is like duct tape, it has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together. [yoj]

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    Thanks for the response guys. Appreciate it.
    J Pham

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    Depending on the various branches, there are some differences in the waza that are included in the regular curriculum. Suffice it to say that they look similar at a superficial level, but are suprisingly different at a more subtle level.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Personally I consider MSR and MJER to be different branches of the same ryu. Sure they have some differences, mostly just slight differences in interpretations of how the kata are performed, target areas and whatnot, but the kata are the same kata. Who cares if noto is different or the sageo is tied differently; if that's how you base two different ryu, then you're looking at the wrong details.

    I don't have my books in front of me, but: Late 19th century, Nakayama Hakudo studied the two main lineages of MJER, in a whole lot of detail. He then made changes to the curriculum as he taught it, in order to put things back in line with what he thought was the older style of the art as it came from it's original creator, Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu. Nakayama's student's later (posthumously I believe) named his teachings Muso Shinden Ryu.

    Incidently, I go to a big ZNKR iai seminar in Canada every year, and last year out of maybe 80 or so students, there was 6 or 7 people doing MSR. All the rest were MJER, so the MSR/ZNKR slant doesn't always hold up.
    Ric Flinn

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    Default differences

    If you can read Japanese, there is an amazing book by Iwata sensei just out. It's primarily a technical treatise on MJER, but he has done an incredible amount of research on MJER, MSR and has pieced together what he thinks are the original technical origins of both, during the prewar era. It' s not in front of me now so I can't remember the exact name...something like "Iaido no Honkaku" or something.

    The differences, as others have said, seem superficial for the first couple of years you may train in iai. Then as you become aware of the subtleties, they become quite disparate. I read one or two pages of the book and I have to put it down. My head hurts. Weather it's from the Japanese, or from the depth of Iwata sensei's knowledge and facts, or both, I don't know.

    My own teacher once remarked to me that in the prewar days, it was all Eishin-ryu. Then somehow, sometime after WWII, people began calling Nakayama Hakudo's variation (influenced largely by the Shimomura-ha) MSR, and the other, Tanimura-ha variation MSJER. Same, but different. In some cases, the base kata of one ends up the henka (variation) of the other.

    The "same but different" extends even to how you do the initial cut, the nukiuchi, the angle of the cut, the way the torso faces, the way kirioroshi works, and how you do the chiburui. It's the same kata, and in general the same movements, but the particulars in terms of fine body mechanics are all different. So, too, the explanations of the applications are often quite different.

    To his credit, Iwata sensei is quite an educated man, a scholar, and he has drawn comments and technical beliefs from so many disparate sources that he does justice to both ryu without being very partisan, even though he is a MSJER person.

    Again, if you can get the Iwata book and you can read Japanese, you will find it invaluable. On the other hand, if you are just starting out in iai, it may be overkill and you may end up too betroubled with so many technical theories and variations coming out at you. Better to just train and do what your teacher says.

    Wayne Muromoto

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    Wayne,

    I read a work by Iwata-sensei recently, and was thoroughly impressed, and was wondering if it might be the book you were mentioning: Koryu Iai no Hondo.

    With respect,
    Daniel Lee

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    Default I stand corrected

    Daniel,

    You are right. I just got home and saw that the book is correctly titled Koryu Iai no Hondo.

    Wayne Muromoto

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    Default Just to clarify

    Originally posted by Ric Flinn
    [...]Who cares if noto is different or the sageo is tied differently; if that's how you base two different ryu, then you're looking at the wrong details.
    Since this refers back to my post above, I would like to add that I chose those two examples precisely because of their "triviality" and obvious nature (even a casual spectator would notice them). As has been pointed out, there are more subtle differences, but due to several reasons I don't think these should be elaborated on an online forum.
    Aage Bakken

    Ki is like duct tape, it has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together. [yoj]

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    Default WAYNE!

    Hello Wayne

    Long time no hear/read. How goes it?
    Andy Watson

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    Kobe o tareru
    Inaho ka na

    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

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    Default Re: Just to clarify

    Originally posted by A. Bakken
    Since this refers back to my post above, I would like to add that I chose those two examples precisely because of their "triviality" and obvious nature (even a casual spectator would notice them). As has been pointed out, there are more subtle differences, but due to several reasons I don't think these should be elaborated on an online forum.
    Yeah I know Aage, didn't mean to pick on your post. Generally speaking, if a casual observer or beginner asks what's the difference between MSR and MJER, I'll tell 'em the same thing. Of course we both know that the differences, the ones that really matter, run much deeper (and don't need to be elaborated on an online forum).
    Ric Flinn

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    Default

    Wayne,
    I have some of Iwata sensei's book translated, but am particularly interested in the chapter on Mori Shigeki sensei... any chance you could rattle off a quick translation into english for me? (I've not got that far yet!)
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

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    Default Still reading...

    Tim,

    Sorry, I'm still on page 52. The chapter on Mori is way in the back, and at my pace, I may not get to the end until later this year. I'm partly a slow reader in Japanese, partly I don't have a lot of time nowadays, and partly I'm blown away by Iwata's detailed explanations and I have to put the book down after one or two pages to digest the info he gives.

    --Wayne Muromoto

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    I've just had a week with him...the book is easy compared to that.... And as I'm a glutton for punishment I'm about to book a trip over for June next year to see him again...
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

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