Crane Mountain

[E.elemental]

Hello!

In a related thread the company Crane Mountin is mentioned. And from what I hear their weapons are really good. Is there anyone out there that has eny experience of their Kata Kama, with 330 steel. I dont know much about steel but is it any good, I want the possibility to sharpen my Kama razor-sharp. I know of course that there are limitations of a weapon and you should not use it for what its not intended. But could they take some beating? And why is there no price, I understand that it depends on with what kind of wood I want to my Nunchaku and so on. But it would help to get some idea anyway.

Or have I missed anything?

I`ll send an e-mail to them with more specific questions, but every opinion on their Kama or other weapon is most welcome!




http://www.crane-mountain.com/

[tsurutengu]

have never handled any of the Crane Mountain weapons. Their website has some nice pictures but it is a little difficult to discern quality from photos.

330 stainless steel, don't know why they would select 330, is basically like all 300 series CRES (corrosion resistant steel) and that is it's mush metal. Stays nice and 'shiney' but is soft. It will take a lot of beating and I guess that's OK as long as you beat it back to something resembling it's original shape. Cres 301 and 302 can be work hardened (used for springs) but you would lose all that if there is any welding involved after work hardening. A realistic Kama would have to be made from at a medium carbon or high carbon steel (1050 to 1090) and heat treated. Some of the tool steels (O1, L6, S7, etc.) would work much better.

You might get them razor sharp but it wouldn't last.

I own a pair, right and left hand versions, of BUGEI Kama that I am happy with. Their big draw back is they don't have the look of a peasant weapon. But, then again, all the ones I have researched as weapons don't resemble farm implements either.

Hope that answers some of your questions.

Mark Galvin

[Robby Bray]

I have to disagree with you on that one. The key is if it is welded. The blades are not welded anywhere and if hardened after being sharpened it will hold its edge. They chose a 330 stainless because it is what most high quality knife blades used to be made of. They have a new material now that is very popular and I have forgotten what they call it now, but it is quite a bit more expensive. Remember that materials such as 300 series stainless, are "mush" materials before they are hardened. If they were not "mush" material, the toolsmith would pull his hair out trying to shape it and make it work with him. Kinda like a potter has to heat his clay creation in a kiln to harden it and make it strong.

[tsurutengu]

Originally posted by Robby Bray
I have to disagree with you on that one.

You definitely are entitled to your opinion

The key is if it is welded. The blades are not welded anywhere and if hardened after being sharpened it will hold its edge.

Nice to know they are not welded anywhere.

As I originally stated, 300 series stainless steel can not be hardened thru heat treatment. Cold working is the only method of hardening (i.e., you have to pound on it).

They chose a 330 stainless because it is what most high quality knife blades used to be made of.

Since when?

Had you written 410, 420, 440A, 440B, 440C, OR 440V I would have to agree... as far as stainless steel blades are concerned.

Maybe the website is in error listing 330 stainless steel.

They have a new material now that is very popular and I have forgotten what they call it now, but it is quite a bit more expensive.

Try ATS34, 154CPM, D2, A2, S7, or BG42. BG42 is the only relatively new one (from Timken and used for balls, rollers, needles and races in their line of rolling element bearings).

Remember that materials such as 300 series stainless, are "mush" materials before they are hardened. If they were not "mush" material, the toolsmith would pull his hair out trying to shape it and make it work with him.

Make a blade from mush and you will only have a mush blade. Generally all materials are worked in the annealed or normalized state. I prefer ones the will harden thru heat treatement and not soften.

Kinda like a potter has to heat his clay creation in a kiln to harden it and make it strong.

Big difference between baking clay and the phase transitions of carbon or alloy steels.

As an aside, all stainless steels are not stainless. They all will eventually rust, even after passivation or electro-polishing.

(My comments to your statements are only intended to correct what I perceive as misconceptions of material properties and not as a personal attack on you)

Mark Galvin

[E.elemental]

I didnt even know that there were so many kinds out there. But I must say that this was the kind of info I was looking for.


To keep this simple, what kind of steel should you use for Kata-Kama, nothing really expensive. Plain, simple and good? Prefarebly not stainless since I have heard that the steel is hard to sharepen, I dont care about a shiny finish the slightest.

[CEB]

AISI metal designations are a mess to understand. I hate them. You get same kind of messes when talking about tubing used in bike frames.

Use whatever you want for kama blades. It doesn't matter. You aren't going to use the things anyway. Well I have used mine in the garden a time or two.

If you practice applications against bo you may start to have issues. Most problems I have seen have had to do with handle or construction failure.

When you stop a Bo strike how big of a bite do you take with the kama?

What does your teacher use for kama? Some use a lightweight hardware store sickles some use those heavy battle axe kama from Shureido. Both are good. When in Rome.

[Gene Williams]

I use the heavy Shureido kama. They feel more like a weapon and are constructed pretty well. The blocks we use tend to catch the bo with the blade in a continuous sweeping motion (from inside out) and continue sweeping the bo away and down while cutting the attacker with the other kama. Kama will mess up a good bo, so use old ones for partner work. I have seen kata where the bo is blocked with the handle of the kama against the forearm, but we don't do that. A really hard strike with a bo is something to deal with if you never have. I always had my arm bruised or jarred really badly blocking that way. That seems to me to be too static a way to block. Better to move into the bo or sweep it away as mentioned above.

[CEB]

We wrap our kama bo with this heavy black tape. That helps with the splintering and stuff and seems to give them a little longer life span. We only use these for practicing with kama.

[E.elemental]

Firstly I must point out that my knowledge of Kama in all forms are limited, I have only done Kama-basics in seminars.

My Sensei used until receantly Shureido Kama for Kata and a pair of wooden one for Kumite. Now he uses a Reimondo Kama (I have posted a picture of this in another thread) which has a metal blade, but this is not sharp, the edge is quite thick. This he uses for both Kata and kumite. And of course there are no point on the blade, they may be hard but its nearly impossible to cut another person with them.

Until recently I to used Shureido Kata Kama, I like them. But 3 weeks ago I bought another pair, also them from Reimondo. I am very pleased with my new Kama, with the exception of the blade. its some kind of stainless steel that is very hard to sharpen, and it doesent look good. I want to have the same kind of edge like on my Shureido. And I also want to have the posibillity to use them in my garden, and that means they need to be sharp. Maybe sounds stupid but I want the possibility to use them for what they were intended, to cut grass.

[Robby Bray]

Hey Mark, your comments really don't surprise me. It sounds like you did a whole lot of research over the web, but still aren't even sure what you even said. It's kinda like everything else in the martial arts world. Confuse the unknowing with a lot of tech terms and then try to force feed them your stuff. You obviously have absotlutely NO, and I repeat NO hands on work with these metals. Sorry, 400 series is not an option. It won't polish out to a mirror finish '[u0goj,
3

+
3.6+2
352+
0.3
+.3-

[Robby Bray]

Not sure what happened there. BUt anyway this is the exact reason that Gene was wondering why no is responding to these threads anymore. Too many people that don't have a clue as to what they are talking about are posting. And by the way, there really is no difference in my analogy. You make the blade and then heat treat it. No special tricks. Sorry. And as far as the comment on not all stainless steels will not rust. I never said that. Any Carbon steel alloy will rust. And Unfortunatley, the harder you make it, the more carbon you must have in it. The more carbon you have in it, more likely it is to rust. The higher the stainless series number the more carbon it has in it. That is why aluminum is so soft. But I'm sure Mark already knows this.

[tsurutengu]

Originally posted by Robby Bray
Hey Mark, your comments really don't surprise me. It sounds like you did a whole lot of research over the web, but still aren't even sure what you even said.

Sorry to disappoint you but my comments aren't the result of web research. My comments are off the cuff and come from over 40 years of engineering.

It's kinda like everything else in the martial arts world. Confuse the unknowing with a lot of tech terms and then try to force feed them your stuff.

Maybe that's how it is in your Martial Arts world. If that is the case you have my condolence.

As to the unknowing, I would suggest you take a trip down to the library and find out for yourself.

You obviously have absotlutely NO, and I repeat NO hands on work with these metals. Sorry, 400 series is not an option. It won't polish out to a mirror finish '[u0goj,
3

+
3.6+2
352+
0.3
+.3-

Yes, that must really be obvious.

[tsurutengu]

Originally posted by Robby Bray
Not sure what happened there. BUt anyway this is the exact reason that Gene was wondering why no is responding to these threads anymore. Too many people that don't have a clue as to what they are talking about are posting.

I tend to agree with you, but not for the reasons you perceive.

And by the way, there really is no difference in my analogy. You make the blade and then heat treat it. No special tricks. Sorry.

Yup it's that simple. Just pick an alloy that will respond (i.e., harden) to heat treatment.

And as far as the comment on not all stainless steels will not rust. I never said that.

Didn't say you did. That is why it was an aside comment. It isn't stainless it is corrosion resistant. Just a terminology pet peeve of mine.

Any Carbon steel alloy will rust.

Yes, generally a lot faster than stainless will rust.

And Unfortunatley, the harder you make it, the more carbon you must have in it. The more carbon you have in it, more likely it is to rust.

Not a true statement.

The higher the stainless series number the more carbon it has in it.

Before you go out on that limb, why don't you try comparing the amount Chrome, Nickel, and Carbon in 300 and 400 series stainless steels.

That is why aluminum is so soft. But I'm sure Mark already knows this.

Are you saying aluminum is soft because it has little or no carbon.?

Mark Galvin

[Gene Williams]

You need to use sharp weapons. Toy weapons for toy martial artists.

[Robby Bray]

Like so many other 10 Dans in the U.S., you must have mastered yet another art. Engineering has turned into such a generic term nowadays. Kinda like technicians. The original point of this thread was asking about crane mountain weapons. We've been buying them for over four years now and have never had a complaint. If you want a blade to hold its edge get there's will. THe only bad news is that there is about a 1 yr waiting period for them. THat's how backed up they are. The 330 stainless is such a pain to work with it takes forever to get them polished out.