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Thread: Hakko ryu jujutsu

  1. #31
    Aaron Fields Guest

    Unhappy

    Bahhhh,

    This post may stray but Mr. Keen's post pushed my button....You say tomato I say tomato. I get suspicious anytime something's history is called mysterious. Aiki this aiki that, who's got a corner on aiki is up for debate. If a ju-jutsu guy cannot know aikijujutsu, then how can an aikijujutsu guy know ju-jutsu. Semantic you say, why yes I agree. Most ju-jutsu out there is a hodge podge of junk, most aikijujutsu out there is a hodge podge of junk. Good budo/bujutsu is going to have more in common than they do different. Secret techniques and the like are hog-wash.

    One of the reasons I like history is the dose of humility. You figure out quickly that nothing is original everything has been done before. Eventually I quit trying to be original and begin striving to just be good.

    Of course, this is only the opinion of a simple ju-jutsu guy.

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    I have to say I think I know where Brently's coming from, for the most part, and in regards to Hakkoryu specifically, he's right.

    If I sat here and said that I understood the concept of "aiki" becuase I was taught a Hakkoryu shodan technique called "Aiki Nage" (a very simple off-balance throw), then I think a lecture on the bigger and better aspects of aiki would really make me think.

    I've been fortunate enough to have had converstaions/hands-on work with people I believe to have been "in-the-know" who have made me realize that what I am learning in the upper studies of Hakkoryu really does embrace aiki, maybe the same way Daito-ryu does. That was my point. I am told that in my next step in Hakkoryu, this will become even more pronounced.

    The best conversation I had in this regard was with Shogen Okabayashi (Hakuhokai) with the help of a translator. We had a really big laugh at the end, concluding that even between both languages at our disposal, we were doing a terrible job of describing the concept. Another very interesting conversation I had regarding aiki was with the late Walter Todd. It was great to get a westerner's view, especially one with such experience.

    Devon

  3. #33
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    Nathan,

    You wrote: "I'm afraid I can't agree with this statement."

    I don't think we're really disagreeing over all that much. But neither do you have to agree if you don't wan't to.

    You said,

    "I do agree that we wouldn't be talking any more about concepts like "aiki" than we would concepts like "suigetsu", or "zanshin" if it was not for Daito ryu's popularity."

    Herein lies most of my frustration as expressed in my first several posts on this thread. That is, despite my on-going insistence that in Daito-ryu there are certain distinctions that are important for understanding terms such as "aiki" and "aikijujutsu".

    One such distinction that people still don't seem to get is that in Daito-ryu, "aiki" is a special or unique technique AS OPPOSED TO simply just a concept, theory, or approach. Hence the terms "aiki no jutsu" and "aikijujutsu" as used and popularized by Daito-ryu. (Jutsu here, refers to "the technique(s) of".)

    Most other arts that I am familiar with, including Aikido, and Hakko-ryu define "aiki" not as primarliy a technique in itself, but primarily as a concept. Some arts describe it as an attitude or spirit as well. The concept of 'aiki' is common to many arts and systems. The technique(s) of aiki, and aikijujutsu techniques of Daito-ryu however are not common to other systems, so I call them unique.

    For example, Karl Friday defines aiki in Kashima-Shinryu as a 'reciprocal spirit'. It seems to be both part of a concept and an attitude/approach. Ie: part of the omote of 'Hoyo Doka', or acceptance and resorption, and the ura of 'suigetsu no gokui', or the 'moon on the water' axiom. Aiki, he says represents the spiritual and psychological aspects of Gontaiyu which is the physical balance of power that maintains a warrior's physical equilibrium, and is the omote of the moon on the water axiom. The broader meaning of hoya doka is contained in it's ura teaching which is that a warrior must always approach combat from a position of absolute impartiality and moral rectitude. This is an approach or attitude that is neutral and detached, uncolored by emotions, prejudice and morality. Don Angier refers to this as the principle of "emotional detachment". I quote from Dr. Friday's book, "In it's widest sense, then, hoyo doka represents an approach to life and to social interactions of all forms." Aiki then, as defined by Kashima-Shinryu appears to be part of an over-all approach to their philosophy and science of combat.

    In Daito-ryu though, "aiki" is more than just a component of an over-all approach to combat and/or life's interactions. It's also more than just a conceptual, philosophical or theoretical base upon which the tradition is built. In Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, "aiki" is also the actual technical base of it's curriculum.

    Concepts such as suigetsu, zanshin, and emotional detachment are common to most all martial arts, whatever terms they use to describe them, but I've yet to see, nor has anyone ever shown me 'aikijujutsu' or 'aiki' techniques from another art not deriving from (or significantly influenced by) Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. Therefore, I have to conclude, until shown and convinced otherwise that Daito-ryu "aiki" is unique, because of it's distinctives. Anyone who would like to better understand what this kind of aiki is, what it's distinctives are, and how and why it differs from other art's interpretations should then go to it's source (in this case, Daito-ryu AJJ).


    "And I also concede that Daito ryu may in fact be the most advanced system to research aiki currently, and as such a good place to consider focusing your effort."

    It may be, but that was not the point I was making. I've always insisted that Daito-ryu aiki is unique and thus special, and I agree it's certainly a good place to focus one's efforts if you're interested in aikijujutsu, but I'm not really so arrogant to insist to everyone that the art I practice is the most advanced system!


    "However, Your conclusion: "Therefore it stands to reason that if you want the proper definition, you should look to it's source (Daito-ryu) for clarification." Seems a bit strong to me."

    Maybe my use of the words 'proper definition' is what's offensive. But 'clarification' is really the key word here (and in my previous post). The context of this whole thread was based around these questions: "What's the general opinion of those familiar with Daito Ryu and Hakko Ryu. Is Hakko Ryu considered to be aikijujutsu?" and, "What is the definition of aiki?". So as someone familiar with both arts, I've attempted to clarify the difference between the common interpretation of aiki by most styles as primarily a concept, with my perspective as a Daito-ryu practitioner which defines aiki more as a special technique. I apologize for being repetitive, but I still insist that if anyone would like to learn the 'proper definition' then it makes more sense to go to Daito-ryu, which is the source of this technical perspective, or unique definition of aiki.


    "It appears at this point that most if not all definitions I've come across at least have major elements in common."

    I also agree that there are many elements in common, but it's the elements that are distinct that make up the differences that I'm always talking about. Understanding these distinctions I think is crucial for gaining a good understanding of what constitutes aiki and therefore aikijujutsu from the Daito-ryu perspective.

    I certainly look forward to reading your essay when you get it finished.

    Regards,

    Brently Keen

    [Edited by Brently Keen on 01-24-2001 at 09:32 PM]

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    Hi Brently-san,

    Basically, as I mentioned before speaking with authority about what "aiki" is and saying that Daito ryu is the source of aiki is inaccurate and misleading. You've just stated that you feel Daito ryu aiki is unique, which reinforces this point.

    There are many styles using the term aiki in the general concept of "non-resistance" (which could also be attributed to "ju"), "turning when pushed, entering when pulled", and "using the opponent's energy/power against them". This seems to be the most basic, fundamental level of aiki shared by most if not all styles that use the term. They have more in common with their usage than Daito ryu does with their one unique definition, despite how popular and influential it is.

    Does Aikido use aiki in the same way that Daito ryu does? Maybe it was supposed to, but now it follows the more general usage found in many styles. What about Hakko ryu? Doesn't sound like you think so.

    Why not simply refer to the aiki used uniquely by Daito ryu as "DR aiki" or something so that there is no misunderstanding?

    I understand that you were speaking within the context of this thread on Hakko ryu & Daito ryu, but I really believe many readers will take your comment the long way, and basically, I don't think it's fair to say when so many other styles use the term "aiki" in the application of their style. I think I know what your saying, but it's just something to think about when writing publicly about it.

    As far as Kashima shin ryu, obviously we're not qualified to discuss it properly, but Professor Friday does mention in his book "Legacies of the Sword" that the way they use aiki is physical, in that they sort of blend with the opponent's speed and power in order to produce a neutral, "0" position in the attack (literally neutralizing the attack?) at which point the opponent is sort of floating and minimal effort can be used by the proponent to control/down the opponent. It sounds far more subtle than most applications, and much closer to Daito ryu (at least one main principle of it).

    Anyway, I'll try to put it all in words and will look forward to your comments.

    Regards,


    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  5. #35
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    Brently,

    I have to say that while in the past I have never quite understood or aggreed with your aiki statements, you expressed yourself *very* well in your last post. The distinction between a philosophy and a distinct set of actual techniques is an important one, and will give me something to consider as I continue to pursue this subject. Thank you for your perspective.

    Ron Tisdale

  6. #36
    Dean Stewart Guest

    Default dr aiki

    Nathan,
    i agree that daito-ryu should be labled as dr aiki if it is unique! i think we have to look at aiki as it relates to concept,principle and technique. brently refers to aiki as a technique, because that is the way the roppokai teaches principle.

    aikido and daito-ryu teach that you have to get kuzushi(chip away the posture) before balance. both arts teach circular movements to take balance. i think the issue is not that aiki is special in one art and not the other in respect to prinicple, just concept and technique.
    respectfully,
    dean Stewart

  7. #37
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    Hello Mr. Stewart,

    Thanks for your input. I've got no problem with all the different interpretations of aiki, but it seems that to be fair we should either talk about it in it's most general sense (the context of which all/most arts have in common) or in it's specific sense (DR aiki, KSR aiki, etc) to avoid misunderstanding.

    I'll take your word that there are aiki techniques in Roppokai - it's a little foggy as to what the seperation is between a concept/tactic and a technique to me though. But I won't inquire further here since this might be information that DR would prefer to keep discreet.

    To me, techniques are the physical manifestations of principles, concepts and/or tactics. The technique is the result of the principle being applied. If you keep within the logic and confines of the principles of your style, there is an unlimited amount of techniques and variations that can be performed - and they will all be "right".

    In the aiki buken, we apply our definition of aiki to "capture" the opponent's physical, mental and spiritual initiative. Then, we can choose to use kansetsu, kuzushi, taiho, nage or any comination of the above to conclude the technique. At higher levels, the ending is incidental compared to the initial contact & set-up. I believe this to be the same in most arts, since if you blow the set-up it is very difficult to continue with the same technique without significant adaptation.

    Anyway, we don't call these aiki techniques, just techniques done with aiki. Perhaps this is the point that yourself and Brently-san are trying to make in regards to the Roppokai approach?

    Regards,

    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  8. #38
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    "One such distinction that people still don't seem to get is that in Daito-ryu, "aiki" is a special or unique technique AS OPPOSED TO simply just a concept, theory, or approach. Hence the terms "aiki no jutsu" and "aikijujutsu" as used and popularized by Daito-ryu. (Jutsu here, refers to "the technique(s) of".)"

    Mr. Keen,

    Aiki is a technique not a concept but a technique……ahhh……your teacher teaches the exact opposite. Perhaps you don’t really believe what you wrote and are just being a good intelligence officer.

    Intelligence Officer Creed:

    “Admit nothing,
    Deny everything,
    Make false counter accusations.”

    This is one of two possible explanations for your post; the other is not very PC and doesn’t need to be written.

    Your teacher specifically trains people to see the principles and NOT get hung up on technique. Indeed, he rarely even teaches the names of the techniques and states that the names and individual techniques are not nearly as important as a solid understanding of the concept/principles which make the techniques work.

    You seem to be very stuck on “no-shi” as a unique technique, which defines DR aiki instead of ONE part of the overall concept that makes up DR aiki. Your teacher states that aiki is made up of: 1) controlled breathing, 2) circular motion, and 3) conditioned response. “No-shi” is one part of circular motion it is not even the entire concept of circular motion let alone aiki.

    (No-shi is the specific shape that Mr. Keen’s teacher uses in all of his techniques. It is shaped like a question mark (?), more or less. Aiki-age and aiki-sage both use this shape when properly executed. This is a very important aspect of the aiki as defined by Mr. Keen’s teacher but is by no means the sole defining aspect. Fact is this shape can be found in ALL aiki techniques that Mr. Keen’s teacher teaches, thereby making it a principle and not just a mere technique. Actually, another equally important aspect of circular motion is the concept of “infinite circles” which start from the feet. One’s entire body makes the ‘no-shi’ shape when doing any/all of this style of aiki technique.)

    When you write “aiki is a special or unique technique AS OPPOSED TO simply just a concept, theory or approach” you are implying that a technique is more important and critical than a concept or principle. Since techniques are made up of principles and not the other way around I find your statement hard to swallow.

    Along the same line, on the numerous visits of your teacher to our dojo he frequently made his view very clear that none of the techniques were as important as the concepts and understanding how to apply the concepts. He stated that when one fully understood the concepts they would be able to transcend technique and simply apply the basic concepts to any given situation in a limitless manner. Furthermore, his training with us was geared in that direction. After the first few visits he started to set aside time during each visit when tori was required to be creative in applying the principles. He didn’t show a technique, he had uke attack tori and tori attempted to apply the principles. Each time he stated that eventually the principles would just flow and unique technique that perfectly fit the situation would appear. Having trained with you and your teacher at your old dojo, the last time you hosted him almost 2 years ago, I realize that he was not training you in that method yet.

    mark

  9. #39
    Dean Stewart Guest

    Default to aiki or not to aiki

    Nathan,
    let me clarify ! DR Aiki is no different than the aiki of Aikido. there is no secret, although some would disagree.
    in sports we create the same movement when hitting a baseball or throwing a basketball(circle line concept).The concepts of these movements are diferent, however prinicpially the same. the mystery is finding where the circle and line(no-shi) can be applied. in the roppokai the circle line concept is applied as you are attacked by leading(misdirection), circling and pushing at a weak angle.
    (sound like Aikido?)
    i do not think that one group can take credit for a principle of nature(no-shi).

    respectfully,
    dean stewart
    http://www.shochoh.com

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    Hello Mark & Dean-san,

    Thank you for your contributions - too bad all of this aiki stuff is being logged in the Jujutsu forum, since it would be valuable to have it archived in the AJJ forum for future reference.

    Anyway, I finally had a chance to view Okamoto Sensei on tape recently, and found his approach interesting. As Mr. Stewart pointed out, there were lots of circles; not unlike Aikido and many other arts, and in fact generally similar in many ways to what Angier Sensei teaches (at least in his seminars). However, I should point out that, while there are similiarities of general principles, the application and depth of application are quite different from Aikido as seen commonly today.

    I recognize the No-Shi motion a bit more, and have seen it used in other branches of Daito ryu Aikijujutsu. However, at least one branch does not seem to use this specific "shape" as their main principle. I mention this because Okamoto Sensei was originally a senior in the Kodokai branch, and is now ackowledged as teaching "Daito ryu Aikijujutsu including some of his own innovations". While there may be more in common in regards to the principles/methods of employing aiki in the various Daito ryu AJJ branches, it may not be totally objective to draw conclusions about "Daito ryu Aiki" assumed from experience in any single branch of DR AJJ.

    That's not to try to put anyone down, just point out that some of the AJJ branches may specialize in slightly/considerably different aspects of Daito ryu aiki.

    Thanks for the interesting perspective!

    (PS. Nice to meet you finally Mark-san!)

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #41
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    Hi Guys,

    I didn't mean to get to the pile on Brently party late but..... I've been busy.

    Just kidding Brently.

    Anyway, you stated:

    "The definition of aiki has been debated to no end, but the term "aiki" has come into popular use primarily because of the influence of Daito-ryu, and arts derived from Daito-ryu such as Aikido and Hakko-ryu. Therefore it stands to reason that if you want the proper definition, you should look to it's source (Daito-ryu) for clarification."

    Brently,

    Nathan commented on this statement earlier and I must agree with him that statements like this are cause for much of the confusion and consternation directed towards you. It's easy to interpret you as saying that Daito ryu is "the source" of aiki not just aiki as manifested in Aikido or Hakko ryu.

    Aiki as a technical/principal existed in kenjutsu long before Daito ryu. Your teacher stated this fact directly to me when he and I discussed this over dinner several months ago. Daito ryu may have developed a "distinctive" manifestation of aiki principles within the framework of empty handed conflict but Daito ryu is only the "source" of these very specific manifestations. Daito ryu borrowed , co-opted, appropriated, lifted, (whatever you want to call it) it's fundamental principles from kenjutsu and then chose to focus and adjust them so they applied technically to taijutsu. That may make them unique but so what! Strictly defining unique within the framework we are discussing here is virtually impossible.

    I would argue that DR aiki is much less decisive in jujutsu than it would be or is in kenjutsu, its true source. This is due to the inherent lethal consequences associated with its subtle & proper execution while on the receiving end of a katana. In my experience thats where aiki really shows its stuff and why it was originally developed within the framework of various kenjutsu ryuha and not within jujutsu.

    The source of aiki in Aikido or Hakkoryu may well be Daito ryu. But the source of aiki in Daito ryu is not Daito ryu itself. It is various kenjutsu ryuha stretching back too far to document. Simply stated, the true source of aiki existed long before Daito ryu and is ultimately unknown.

    I think much of this misunderstanding is semantics compounded by the inherent fallability associated with our wonderful English language. And heck, add Texan in to that and I'm suprised I can even read my own writin'

    Tobs


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    In view of Toby's last post, I wonder if there are any Ono-ha Itto ryu practitioners who could speak to the use of aiki in that ryu. Since that ryu has been paired in many ways with Daito ryu, and for a significant period of time, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some mention in the ryu of specific aiki related techniques or strategies. Anyone out there have any info?

    Ron Tisdale

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    Default Hakko-ryu: menkyo mill?

    I have heard rumors that it is fairly easy to obtain rank in hakko-ryu these days in Japan, one person mentioning 9th months for menkyo kaiden! Now, I might have thought that this might be some splinter ryuha, but I have also heard that the hakko-ryu name is now copyrighted by the main organization. Anyone know the facts behind these rumors?
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Hakko-ryu: menkyo mill?

    Originally posted by John Lindsey
    I have heard rumors that it is fairly easy to obtain rank in hakko-ryu these days in Japan, one person mentioning 9th months for menkyo kaiden! Now, I might have thought that this might be some splinter ryuha, but I have also heard that the hakko-ryu name is now copyrighted by the main organization. Anyone know the facts behind these rumors?
    No idea, but a menkyo kaiden in 9 months? Maybe I should head over there - it sure would look snazzy on my resume !

    Best,

    Chris

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    John,

    I've heard similar rumors, but I don't have any first-hand knowledge. As for 9 months, I would doubt it. However, I have heard of individuals gaining menkyo licenses in Hakko ryu within five to six years. A ridiculously short amount of time for any art.

    Respectfully,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito ryu Study Group
    Maryland

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