Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 62

Thread: What was Ninjutsu

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    England
    Posts
    285
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default What was Ninjutsu

    I am posting this thread to try to get some ideas on what people think a Ninja or the art of Ninjutsu was or is. It appears that no one can give an definitive answer, and indeed there may be no answer. It may just depend on where one draws the line between Samurai at one end of the scale and Ninja at the other. Things as we know in life are never black or white. Yet what does kind of frustrate me really is that there are plenty of people that are willing to say 'this is not ninjutsu' or 'that is not ninjutsu' without coming back with 'This is ninjutsu'.

    To give my two penneth before we start, I believe that the word Ninjutsu and Ninja have become coveralls for any art that accomplishes some kind of stealth movement, trickery or hiding etc. and thats the problem. How do we talk about what is and what is not ninjutsu without using the word Ninjutsu. Because as soon as one uses that word, whatever one talks about instantly becomes that i.e. ninjutsu.

    Its a little like how we now use the word Vandal to describe anyone who destoys something, knowing that in the past the Vandals were a distinct cultural group that sacked Rome.

    Some Ryu Ha we know that are not taught by Dr Hatsumi have the word Ninjutsu in their curriculum. But should we be asking ourselves 'Is this term there because the Ryu did have methods of spying (every army needs spies) and the word Ninjutsu is simply used as a term to denote what it is they are studying, and probably put there in recent times. After all according to Tanemura Sensei the term Ninja has only been around for about 50 years. Even the Kabuki theatre has people that are termed ninja that change the scene during a performance.

    In the past of course there were terms such as Shinobi no Mono, Iga no Mono, Kancho, Suppa, Rappa etc but no Ninja (unless people know different). And it is highly likely that the people we think of as Ninja did not have a name for what they did. They may also have of course evolved and changed as time went on. Even if you were not a ninja, and knowing the Ninja had a image that created fear about them, then would'nt it be handy if you were a thief for example to call yourself a ninja and dress like one. Or were thieves who did a bit of sneaking around, Ninja?

    When I think of the Ninja I think of these people that lived in the Iga mountains whose ancestors were high class people who were defeated by Heike troops, who then developed a method of self protection of the body, mind and spirit against forces that set out to destroy them. In my view these people may be of different genetic stock to the invaders, had widely different views and could probably be seen at the time as a completely seperate cultural group.
    (Note, there is at this time a lot of research going on into the origins of the Ainu, Jomon and Japanese etc. One book that touches on this is The archaeology of Human Bones by Simon May)

    So what was Ninjutsu. was it:
    1/ A martial arts schools that was practiced in Iga (For example Gyokko Ryu, Kukishin Ryu)
    2/ A Schools that was used by people like Sandayu Momochi (For example Gyokko Ryu, Koto ryu)
    3/ A Schools that has elements of hiding, stealth etc within it (togakure Ryu).
    4/ A school that has no physical techniques but is based on tactics, strategy, methods of spying and/or philosophy (Possibly Gyokushin Ryu)
    5/ A school i.e Katori Shinto Ryu that although a Samurai school has Ninjutsu within it.
    6/ Or any combination of the above.

    As I pointed out, there may not be any definitive answer to this, but I think it would be intersting to find out what peoples views are. The problem is with this and many other posts is that people try to argue over semantics. I urge you then to see this post for what it is (and this has been extremely difficult to write so that people understand it) and lets have some interesting discussion and not a free for all.

  2. #2
    Daniel Bowley Guest

    Default Can never be an answer only a question with many opinions

    IMHO A person that knows thier place within nature. To adapt and change when needed.Living a peaceful and productive life when possible. Someone who prays for the best but trains for the worst.Loyalty and respect for Nature ,family ,friends and our Elders who share thier knowledge with us. This list could go on and on but I think I have made my point.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    85
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Re: What was Ninjutsu

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    I am posting this thread to try to get some ideas on what people think a Ninja or the art of Ninjutsu was or is. It appears that no one can give an definitive answer, and indeed there may be no answer. It may just depend on where one draws the line between Samurai at one end of the scale and Ninja at the other. Things as we know in life are never black or white. Yet what does kind of frustrate me really is that there are plenty of people that are willing to say 'this is not ninjutsu' or 'that is not ninjutsu' without coming back with 'This is ninjutsu'.
    "The essence of nin is the correct heart and mind. The elements of nin are covert [activity], information gathering, disguise, and surveillance. Without first having a correct heart, it is impossible to take advantage of strategy. Koshi said that not cultivating [the proper heart] will cause confusion and distress. The meaning of 'correct heart' is the adherence to virtue, righteousness, loyalty, and sincerity. Without maintaining virtue, righteousness, loyalty, and sincerity, it will be impossible to have intrepid spirit."

    (Fujibayashi Yasuyoshi, http://www.ninpo.org/historicalrecor...aivolume2.html)

    "A person, when being righteous and sincere, is in accordance with heavenly justice. When a person attains understanding of heavenly justice, he serves the will of god. This is why I referred to the 'mind and eyes of god'. Therefore, the ninja is a person aware of justice.

    The above-mentioned principles are the foremost requirements of the ninja. Neither the power of invisibility nor superhuman actions are the first consideration. The ninja are not members of a circus. Nor are the ninja robbers, assassins, or betrayers. The ninja are none other than persons of perseverance and endurance. Togakure ryu ninpo is the very evidence that ninja have lived and protected their happy lives over a thousand years."

    (Masaaki Hatsumi, Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions)

    "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja."

    (Masaaki Hatsumi, Ninpo: Wisdom for Life)

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    After all according to Tanemura Sensei the term Ninja has only been around for about 50 years. Even the Kabuki theatre has people that are termed ninja that change the scene during a performance.

    In the past of course there were terms such as Shinobi no Mono, Iga no Mono, Kancho, Suppa, Rappa etc but no Ninja (unless people know different).
    Ninja and shinobi no mono are different proncounciations of the same kanji.

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    And it is highly likely that the people we think of as Ninja did not have a name for what they did. They may also have of course evolved and changed as time went on. Even if you were not a ninja, and knowing the Ninja had a image that created fear about them, then would'nt it be handy if you were a thief for example to call yourself a ninja and dress like one. Or were thieves who did a bit of sneaking around, Ninja?
    "Sasama distinguishes between the expert shinobi, who passed on their traditions to their descendents, of which the Iga-shu are the best example, and others who were no more than bandits, hired temporarily as kancho. He adds that shinobi were time and again misunderstood and mistrusted by their own allies, and that shinobi techniques were perceived as no more than theft. However, when taken along with an army shinobi were treated as personal attendants serving in an expert occupation. Finally, as the Tokugawa had rules for just about everything in life, it is not surprising to find regulations covering the use of such persons. In 1649, in the bakufu's laws for military service, only those of 10,000 koku and above were allowed to be accompanied by shinobi when they went to war."

    (Stephen Turnbull, The Lone Samurai and the Martial Arts)

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    When I think of the Ninja I think of these people that lived in the Iga mountains whose ancestors were high class people who were defeated by Heike troops, who then developed a method of self protection of the body, mind and spirit against forces that set out to destroy them. In my view these people may be of different genetic stock to the invaders, had widely different views and could probably be seen at the time as a completely seperate cultural group.
    (Note, there is at this time a lot of research going on into the origins of the Ainu, Jomon and Japanese etc. One book that touches on this is The archaeology of Human Bones by Simon May)
    Hrmmmmm.... I think maybe you've read a lil' too much of Glenn Morris' stuff, Gary.

    From what I've read, Iga was a shouen to the Todaiji during most of the Heian Jidai. They rebelled sometime in the 1300's, and established themselves as an ikki from that point on (until Oda Nobunaga invaded in the 1580's). The idea that they were "genetically different" from the rest of Japan is, well, kinda silly.

    By "the people that lived in the Iga mountains", I don't suppose you really meant "the oral story of Togakure Daisuke", did yah?? There are other oral stories, too, of Iga guys that were much better off than Daisuke --- such as Tozawa Hakuunsai, Iga Heinabe Yasukiyo, Ise Saburo Yoshimori, and so on. All of them (including Daisuke) were purportedly retainers to the Minamoto clan.

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    1/ A martial arts schools that was practiced in Iga (For example Gyokko Ryu, Kukishin Ryu)
    I didn't know Kukishin ryu came from Iga. *blinks*

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    2/ A Schools that was used by people like Sandayu Momochi (For example Gyokko Ryu, Koto ryu)
    Not everything used by "ninja" was necessarily "ninjutsu", Gary.

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    3/ A Schools that has elements of hiding, stealth etc within it (togakure Ryu).
    Ummm.... does that include schools like Kukishin ryu and Katori Shinto ryu??

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    4/ A school that has no physical techniques but is based on tactics, strategy, methods of spying and/or philosophy (Possibly Gyokushin Ryu)
    I thought Gyokushin ryu had taijutsu based on Gyokko ryu??

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    5/ A school i.e Katori Shinto Ryu that although a Samurai school has Ninjutsu within it.
    This sounds like Option 3. Togakure ryu was passed down by samurai families, the Momochi and Toda, and it has Ninjutsu within it.

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    6/ Or any combination of the above.
    Sure. Laterz.
    Trent Whilden

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    England
    Posts
    285
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Great threads so far. Tanemura Sensei in his book Ninpo Secrets puts Kukishin Ryu as coming from the area of Iga, along with Gyokko ryu.
    What I meant by number 3 is a school like Togakure Ryu that is composed almost entirely of escape forms, secret weapons and hiding along with awareness as opposed to schools that have a full curriculum of other martial arts i.e Yarijutsu, Kenjutsu etc and then has a caterogory explaining techniques we would associate as ninjutsu.

    Heretic 888 has shown that the essence of Ninjutsu is correct heart, spirit, etc. The question is then, If I practiced say Karate and never practiced one of the Bujinkan, Genbukan schools but had the correct heart, spirit etc as mentioned by Heretic 888, and I worked in a job where I had to use stealth. Would this make me a ninja.

    I apologise for playing devils advocate here but would be interested to hear others views. Please bear in mind I am not stating anything as fact here, so please don't start attacking me.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Honolulu/New York City
    Posts
    448
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    Yarijutsu
    ????????????
    Christopher Moon

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Honolulu/New York City
    Posts
    448
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Re: Re: What was Ninjutsu

    Originally posted by heretic888

    I didn't know Kukishin ryu came from Iga. *blinks*
    It would be safe to say that there is no historical scholarship that supports that idea that Kukishin Ryu is from Iga. I have an email from one of Tanemura's sensei senior students and he says it is not from Iga either. Maybe a good guy to ask would be Russ Ebert since he a leader in an organization that perserves all Kuki related info.
    Christopher Moon

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    85
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    Tanemura Sensei in his book Ninpo Secrets puts Kukishin Ryu as coming from the area of Iga, along with Gyokko ryu.
    I would be interested in the specific context in which he states this. Would you mind posting a direct quotation??

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    What I meant by number 3 is a school like Togakure Ryu that is composed almost entirely of escape forms, secret weapons and hiding along with awareness as opposed to schools that have a full curriculum of other martial arts i.e Yarijutsu, Kenjutsu etc and then has a caterogory explaining techniques we would associate as ninjutsu.
    I think what you are discussing here is less of a matter of presence versus absence, and more of a matter of emphasis.

    Togakure ryu has the ninja juhachi kei, which encompass a wide variety of skills. At the very least, the school has taijutsu, iaijutsu, kenjutsu, shurikenjutsu, shukojutsu, metsubishi, and so on. Even here, what you might call "ninjutsu" is still part of a greater whole.

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    Heretic 888 has shown that the essence of Ninjutsu is correct heart, spirit, etc. The question is then, If I practiced say Karate and never practiced one of the Bujinkan, Genbukan schools but had the correct heart, spirit etc as mentioned by Heretic 888, and I worked in a job where I had to use stealth. Would this make me a ninja.
    The "correct heart" mentioned by Yasuyoshi is seishin. It has a very specific context, and doesn't just mean "being a good person".

    There is also more to the "elements of nin" than just plain ol' "stealth". Yasuyoshi described a specific set of skills that he expected ninja to learn.

    In any event, it is a historical term that exists in a particular historical context. Later on in the text, Yasuyoshi describes the meaning of 'nin' in regards to loyalty and relationship to one's lord. This is obviously in regards to Japan's feudal system, which no longer exists. Ergo, "ninja" no longer exist.

    Just my thoughts, anyway. Ta ta.
    Trent Whilden

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    85
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Re: Re: Re: What was Ninjutsu

    Originally posted by ChrisMoon
    It would be safe to say that there is no historical scholarship that supports that idea that Kukishin Ryu is from Iga. I have an email from one of Tanemura's sensei senior students and he says it is not from Iga either. Maybe a good guy to ask would be Russ Ebert since he a leader in an organization that perserves all Kuki related info.
    Ah, thanks for the clarification.

    I had doubts it was an Iga school anyway. What limited amount I've seen of Kukishinden didn't seem to "jive" with tactics and strategies attributed to the Iga-shu (hit-and-run scatter tactics, light combat mobility, lighter armor etc.)

    Of course, again, that's just my thoughts on the subject.
    Trent Whilden

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    England
    Posts
    285
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Kukishin coming from Iga is mentioned on page 77 of Ninpo Secrets where Tanemura sensei lists the schools. He states

    "The following break down outlines the areas where 69 different traditions were known to exist. From this information it seems likely that there were no more than 73 different traditions".

    Iga Area (Mie Prefecture)
    Iga-Ryu, Hakuun Ryu, Togakure Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, Genjitsu Ryu, Ryumon Ryu, Tenton-Happo Ryu, Gotton-Juppo Ryu, Kadona Ryu, KUKISHIN RYU, Gyokko Ryu, Rikyoku Ryu, Tsuji Ichimi Ryu, Hattori-Ryu, Taki Ryu, Yoshimori Ryu, Uchikawa Ryu, Gikan Ryu, Takino Ryu, Sawa Ryu, Minamoto Ryu, Momochi Ryu.

    On page 85 of the book he states
    "Interesting to note , the male emblem of the Tanemura family is also found in a scroll (Makimono) containing Kukishin Ryu Ninpos highest teachings".

    (Note Kukishin Ninpo and Highest Teachings)

    In Kuden Number 17 from BUFU magazine Tanemura Sensei states
    "One part or section of Ninpo is the Ninpo Taijutsu. Ninpo Taijutsu is from the famous Koga Ryu, Iga Ryu, Togakure Ryu, Kuki Shin Ryu and Gyokko Ryu.

    In one Kuden referening to Kuki Shin Ryu Bo jutsu, he states that the origins of Bo jutsu for Kukishin Ryu comes from Togakure Ryu. Unfortunately I cannot yet find this BUFU, but when I do i'll post the quote.

    In reply to Heretic 888 where he states that the Togakure ryu had Ninja Juhakkei, I think this relates to the early days when Hatsumi Sensei used Togakure Ryu as an unbrella name for the nine schools.

    As far as I am aware Togakure Ryu consists of:
    Taijutsu Ukemi Gata or Mokuton Jutsu.
    6 techniques for use of Shuko.

    Shinobi Gaeshi Gata
    4 techniques of rolling and leaping atop walls.

    Santo Tonko No Kata
    approx 8 techniques against the sword.

    Kenjutsu
    approx 8 ninja sword techniques

    and three techniques from Hiden Gata.

    and yes does contain Iai, metsubushi, shuriken etc

    Possibly some bo. I think possibly Gayaku Bo techniques are from Togakure Ryu (see above)

    However not exactly 18 areas of study and most of the techniques seem concerned with escape, evasion, and sensory training. I believe the Sakki test is from Togakure ryu.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Honolulu/New York City
    Posts
    448
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    So I guess that means the people that compiled the books Kuki Bunsho no Kenkyu and Kukishinden Zensho have no friggin clue. With the clueless bunch we can add the Kuki family and this website:
    http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/index_e.html . Apparently Watatani had it all wrong when he compiled the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and his other works. Not to mention one of Tanemura's senior students being way off base. I am sure I am leaving out other researchers and experts and even headmasters, but can we really handle any more incompetence??
    Christopher Moon

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Waffle Central
    Posts
    487
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Go read Kuki website, come back and discuss.

    J. Vlach

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    England
    Posts
    285
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Chris

    Why so aggresive and angry, I'm only quoting one source, I'm not saying he is right, although of course Tanemura Sensei is quite well respected. Maybe you can give us some quotes from these books you mention.
    Also didn't Takamatsu sensei restore Kukishin Ryu. Maybe he knew a few things that he did'nt pass on to later authors, but did to some of his students.
    Also of course the Kukishin history is very complex and don't the Shinjin bunch totally discard Hatsumi's Kukishin.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    ask me
    Posts
    94
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    For clarification -

    Gary Arthur: "In reply to Heretic 888 where he states that the Togakure ryu had Ninja Juhakkei, I think this relates to the early days when Hatsumi Sensei used Togakure Ryu as an unbrella name for the nine schools."

    As far as I am aware Togakure Ryu consists of:

    Taijutsu Ukemi Gata or Mokuton Jutsu.
    6 techniques for use of Shuko.

    Shinobi Gaeshi Gata
    4 techniques of rolling and leaping atop walls.

    Santo Tonko No Kata
    approx 8 techniques against the sword.

    Kenjutsu
    approx 8 ninja sword techniques

    and three techniques from Hiden Gata.

    and yes does contain Iai, metsubushi, shuriken etc

    Possibly some bo. I think possibly Gayaku Bo techniques are from Togakure Ryu (see above)

    However not exactly 18 areas of study and most of the techniques seem concerned with escape, evasion, and sensory training. I believe the Sakki test is from Togakure ryu."

    Those above mentioned skills do not represent the complete curriculum of Togakure ryu. Maybe those are the only things you saw on a video or in a book about Togakure ryu.

    The ukemi gata & mokuton no jutsu are not the same thing, and they are not just shuko techniques. *Some* of the ukemi gata use shuko, and *some* of the mokuton involves shuko. Mokuton no jutsu is also just a subset of a larger group of stealth (hiding and escaping) forms.

    While I'm not completely sure, I believe that the shinobi gaeshi gata number more than just 4 techniques, and cover more escape patterns than just leaping over walls.

    The santo tonko no kata are not only used against sword attacks. They cover a wide range of escape tactics including escapes from arm grabs, collar grabs, and from being surrounded by more than one opponent.

    Now, whether or not Togakure ryu itself has all 18 "ninja skills" in its core curriculum, I'm not sure. However, things like the ninja hachimon, ninja juhakkei, the bugei juhappan, and the happo hiken have changed over the years reflecting the time and place in which they were used.
    Marc McDermand

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Lincoln UK
    Posts
    833
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    HI

    I would like to point out that The Kuki family being soke of kukishin ryu would state on the Kuki site Chris listed if they had lived in Iga, they do not, They name places Like Tanba, and Setsu as well as Tosa. No Iga is mentioned and i am guessing that because they are not from Iga..

    As for the Location of the Kukishin Ryu in the past do we accept Mr Tanemura or Mr Kuki as to wether or not the Kukishin ryu is from Iga or form somewhere else.

    Personally I am going to go for the family that owes the kukishin ryu not some other guy who has only a branch school.

    As for Kukishin Ryu having some connection to Togakure ryu
    Quote: In one Kuden referening to Kuki Shin Ryu Bo jutsu, he states that the origins of Bo jutsu for Kukishin Ryu comes from Togakure Ryu. Unfortunately I cannot yet find this BUFU, but when I do i'll post the quote. end quote

    Man this one is funny.
    I think not at all. I think someone has got there kuden mixed up here. I would say Togakure ryu has taken something from Kukishin ryu not the other way around. Kukishin Ryu can prove its existance before 1950 way back to 1330's, Togakure ryu can not. Its common knowledge that the Kukishin Ryu got its bojutsu from the incident with Tenno Go-Daigo and Kuki Yasushimaru.

    In teresting thread but some seriously big historical mistakes in it.
    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Honolulu/New York City
    Posts
    448
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by Gary Arthur
    Chris

    Why so aggresive and angry, I'm only quoting one source, I'm not saying he is right, although of course Tanemura Sensei is quite well respected. Maybe you can give us some quotes from these books you mention.
    Also didn't Takamatsu sensei restore Kukishin Ryu. Maybe he knew a few things that he did'nt pass on to later authors, but did to some of his students.
    Also of course the Kukishin history is very complex and don't the Shinjin bunch totally discard Hatsumi's Kukishin.
    Gary,

    It is hardly anger that I was displaying, I think it is called sarcasm. Whether or not Takamatsu restored Kukishin is a topic for a different thread, but how on God's green earth would the man restore or change history??? History is not some kuden that can be passed on or not. If you want quotes look on the website for yourself.
    If that group discards Hatsumi's branch then I wonder why they have him on their lineage chart.
    Christopher Moon

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •