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Thread: I hate Etiquette.

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    Default I hate Etiquette.

    The first of a depressingly long sequence. Your patience, if given, is appreciated.

    I hate etiquette.

    I don't mean the simple things that help clear my mind before practice and foster an attitude of respect for the art I practice, for the head teacher and those sensei who have helped me along the way, and for my fellow dojo-trainers. These things I like quite a bit: bowing in at the door of the dojo, carrying a sword correctly, listening attentively and watching more intensely when my superiors speak or move, bowing to the hand-written scroll our head teacher gave to the dojo--these things help my training mind. And in a certain sense, they are natural for me since they are natural to the time and occasion; like taking the napkin from my plate to my lap as soon as I sit down for dinner or knowing when to speak up and when to remain silent in a group, like holding the door open for someone regardless of sex or simply doing the ol' redneck wave when I pass someone driving in the country (you'll know what I mean if you've grown up like that). Each of these are small things but are reflections of larger values and so I treasure them and will try to pass them on as they were passed on to me. I have been told that I'm a "nice guy", "with grace" and "considerate," by those who have first met me. Generally people have a fair-to-positive impression of me at first meeting, so I've been told. Though my longtime girl-friend who knows me much better than anyone else-- and who can judge my character more completely and accurately-- calls me a "curmudgeon thirty years early", or simply a grouch, I am fortunate enough to have been trained in certain habits to get by in such situations, and for these things I am grateful.

    So that's not what I hate.

    What I can't stand is something deeper, more complex and more frustrating to deal with. Several times I've been in a situation where good breeding and the etiquette I know make no difference. Situations where those manners my grandmother taught me don't help. Situations of cross-cultural encounters and misunderstandings and, as a result, a gradual perception that I have had a minor failure in etiquette and therefore a potentially major failure of character. To be caught in such situations, to put it simply, sucks.

    Some situations that sometimes come to mind easily illustrate:

    I was fortunate, at the moronic age of 21, to meet one of the highest ranking Aikido sensei in America. He also taught iaido, and I was observing for the first time a class at his dojo. He was extremely friendly, and all accounts of his character I've ever read were positive. While I had a few years of experience in martial arts under my mixed-martial-art belt (years that have served me well in other situations), for the first time I was encountering a different way of doing things, and different tools to get about that way. And when he asked me if I was interested in joining an Aikido class, I said I was interested in joining Iaido.

    A small thing. But his demeanor changed, and I knew vaguely I'd made a mistake. From my point of view, it's entirely understandable: here was an art unlike anything I'd seen and it drew me to it in a new and unfamiliar way. I was simply showing my preference for something that unaccountably drew me. But it wasn't his art, in the sense that I was refusing to learn from someone who had been one of Ueshiba's private students, who had brought this art he devoted his life to, to a new place, on his own—a history I didn't know at the time, and I regret not being smart enough to educate myself before. I was too eager for the wrong thing and he refused me, for reasons I will never know for certain, but can guess at them. I don't know what Iaido meant to him, but the larger loss was to not find out what Aikido meant to him. In the end, I did train, more affordably and consistently for a short time, under one of his highest ranked students at a different dojo, and I kept thinking about JSA for five years until I did finally start. Perhaps it's for the best--I wasn't able to stay with him long enough to really understand much of anything, and my patience has paid off--I'm perhaps more serious about JSA now then I would have been then.

    But I will never forget the way his attitude changed, and I probably never should.
    Last edited by nicojo; 20th November 2004 at 20:41.
    J. Nicolaysen
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    "I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?

    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

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    Pt. 2

    It’s a small thing, and since I haven’t had any meaningful contact with Aikido since that summer, perhaps it would remain a small thing. But this summer I had the incredible opportunity to meet with the most respected leaders of one of the most famous ryu in Japan. I had requested to watch a practice in a corner of Japan fairly remote from where I was training and it took some effort to get there. My way was made easy by a senior practitioner who is perhaps more of a role model to the rest of us than he would like. We arrived at the dojo and waited for the Sensei to arrive. Introductions were made in a language I do not speak and I tried show a good character for these men of far more excellent character.

    When one of the leaders heard the name of the ryu I do train in, he said, “Ah, Araki-ryu with kusari-gama!” I knew what he meant: I’ve seen demonstrations on tape of the Araki ryu-ha that have this weapon in their curriculum and it is impressive and I envy such skill. But those ryu-ha aren’t the same as our line, so I said, “No…that is a different ryu-ha, different prefecture.”

    Here’s my first meeting with a man who will head an immensely complex and wonderful school, and my first words serve to contradict him in front of those he teaches.

    I only wanted to be clear, to make no mistake, for Araki-ryu Gunyo Kogusoku and Araki-ryu Kempou are quite different from our line, and the reasons for our different locations and curriculums I cannot comment on, nor can I comment on those schools in any meaningful way. I only wanted to clarify so that there would not be a case of mistaken identity: I cannot in any way represent these other schools, nor would I want to be seen to. I am the lowest of the low in our ryu; nevertheless, I wanted to be clear about who exactly we are. Such a small thing, but I saw a change in his demeanor and in those around us, and I instantly knew my mistake. Of course, I did the idiotic follow up: some babbling attempts to clarify. But we were speaking in two different languages with completely different systems of etiquette—and nothing I had experienced before could serve me here. Easy to make such a mistake perhaps, and the rest of the night went without much trouble—that I know of—apart from a few shifts from seiza to crosslegs and back again, I watched raptly and in deepest gratitude and perhaps they knew this. For at the end of the session, the same leader said some more things to let me know he understood the line I study in is different from the lines he was familiar with. And they seemed happy to have let me watch, and they invited me to attend their upcoming North American seminar.

    Still, I cannot forget that time, and I probably shouldn’t. I do feel regret, the special type of regret that occurs when a faux-pas is made, and the subsequent chill feeling of awareness is something I don’t want to feel again.
    J. Nicolaysen
    -------
    "I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?

    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

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    Pt. 3

    Of course, I did feel such awareness again during that trip.

    In each of the group practices I attended at our own dojo, I was among the slowest to change from street clothes to dojo clothes. Only natural: I was among the newest members. A rhythm was developed on those nights when Sensei would drive me to and from practice himself—the leader of our school generously being my taxi. Such nights and drives are among my fondest memories of this last summer—personal time with him where we could practice the language we didn’t speak. And when practice was over, he let me know, a week or so in, that I could just remain in hakama and keiko-gi as he did for the ride home—he’s an old man and understandably didn’t relish the unnecessary ten minute wait for me to change. No problem. In fact, our rhythm got to the point at which I’d carry his stuff to and from the car, and no one needed to tell me to pick up this etiquette. It’s only considerate; it is the right thing to do.

    But one night I was in a different mental place. Doesn’t matter what I was thinking; I was standing around by Sensei, oblivious while he packed up his materials. Perhaps it’s because I had adjusted relatively well to certain etiquette that it was easy for them to expect a new etiquette from me—but as for me, I simply didn’t think I should presume to pack up his materials. In my eyes, it was respect: I won’t touch your belongings until it seems like you are ready for me to carry them. In the eyes of the other members, and Sensei, it seemed quite odd that I should stand like a wooden post watching him close shop without deigning to lift a finger. Never mind I had no idea how to put the kenbu equipment in his bag, never mind that for me it seemed disrespectful to riffle around, clumsily and most likely making mistakes in my attempts. The effort, the respect, the etiquette involved was a higher system of action than my faulty inaction of watching, waiting patiently, respectfully (as I thought), and then carrying the things away to the car for the ride home.

    I only knew this when one of the other members, after a few overly-long beats, rushed over and began to do what I was supposed to be doing. Shocked, feeling that chill awareness, I started to do the same. No problem. We went home as usual, chatting in broken English and Japanese, and from then I attempted to be more considerate.

    But, again, it was a problem, however brief: I was expected to act in a certain way and I did not. And this, all this long typing, brings me to what I hate—etiquette. I hate that nebulous state of being, being in two different worlds where the lessons one learns, perhaps masters, in one—are of no help in the other. In fact, those manners completely “natural” yet passed over by many my age in my own culture—those manners actually hindered me in the other system of manners. I hate not knowing such things, I hate being graceless and unnatural—I hate committing things akin to picking one’s nose in company, or farting loudly at a first meeting. A child with half a brain acts better-- provided, of course, that child is in the right culture and has had the right manners taught.

    Some may think this is over-obsessing, over-analyzing, or self-loathing. And my girlfriend who knows me well might agree. But, of course, my girlfriend doesn’t do what I do, and further, my girlfriend is smart enough to see the parallels in those cultures she, for inexplicable reasons, is drawn to. So she’d come around. Does all this keep me up at nights? Not really. It did last night, for some reason, which is why all this has been inflicted on its readers. Did I commit other cross-cultural blunders? Of course, and some readers may be aware of some I’ve committed that I am not. Will I again? Most likely. Did my own sensei forgive and most likely forget, did the other gentlemen move on to “more important” matters? Of course. Are there “more important things” to devote one’s time to? Undoubtedly. So why do I write all this?

    I don’t write it because I want any reader to tell me it’s okay, that I am too hard on myself. This isn’t therapy I’m after—I don’t need it in this area. I don’t write it necessarily to start a “faux-pas I’ve committed” or etiquette-bashing thread. The first may be instructive, the second will be counter-productive and against the spirit this is offered. But in the end, those are up to anyone who bothered to fight there way through this clause-ridden soliloquy—how you respond is your choice.

    I do write it as a warning to my peers who can expect to make such breaches of etiquette, to encourage them to listen, watch and hold their tongue—your first impulse may not be the best course of action. Reflect on manners and etiquette. Though I hate etiquette—and what I hate, truly, is not knowing etiquette, these arts we study demand a certain character and attitude that deserves reflection and preparation. Further, those meetings we may have, everyday situations we may find ourselves in, demand a certain protocol, like it or not. Such breaches are inevitable and sometimes they are laughable; if we are fortunate, they are ignorable. But I believe it is better to be aware of potential, than to be aware after the fact of lost potential.

    Finally I write it to express a deep appreciation of the perils and privileges, and the ultimate benefits of situations requiring good manners, and learning from them. After all, etiquette is implied as much as anything else in these special things we study—and it is in every place, time and land—inside or outside a dojo. Some things can be taught by our betters. Other things we learn despite our best efforts.
    {end}
    J. Nicolaysen
    -------
    "I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?

    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

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    Default Wonderful!

    Mr. Nicolaysen,

    That was truely wonderful. Well worth reading.
    I wonder if you'd mind me showing this to my youth classes?

    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

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    That was probably my favorite E-budo read ever.


    Very touching. Wonderful writing.





    -Alex Dale
    - Alex Dale

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    Mr. Nicolaysen,

    I was wondering if you would allow me to use this at our dojo? It is an excellent way of illustrating some important points.
    Sincerely,

    Matthew Little

    www.shinjinkai.org
    www.tacticalapplications.com

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    Thanks for the kind words! I may try to get this published, in which case I'd prefer that version be used since now I see a few typos/word choices that slipped through the five proofreads and edit window. But who knows how likely a prospect that is. Until then, use this as you like, with the caveat that this month marks my one year anniversary with Iaido/JSA and that while it was an intense two month first-time visit to Japan this summer, I'm a junior member on these forums and in my ryu. I'm only speaking from my (in)experience, so reader beware!
    J. Nicolaysen
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    "I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?

    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

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    Mr Nicolaysen,

    Yout three-part post was very interesting and, of course, give rise to some questions.

    One question is what you could have done to avoid the gaffs you made. You saw immediately that you had said the wrong thing to the aikido teacher (Part 1) and felt guilty about it. You had the awareness to realise the mistake, but nevertheless, you and he were behaving in accordance with the 'mental software' acquired at a much earlier stage in life.

    Here is another episode that happened to me, but with a less happy outcome.

    A few years ago a student from the US took one of my university courses. He also had a high kyu grade in aikido and wanted to continue training. The teacher-pupil relationship is interpreted quie widely here, as you realized, so it was up to me to find him a dojo. He also made his own arrangements (like a good American, he did not wait for his teacher to make the first move) and so trained at two places: at the university dojo with me and at a local dojo near his home.

    The student had been training for almost 10 years, but had moved around somewhat and had not stayed long enough at any one place to complete his journey up the kyu ranks. So I pushed him to train for his shodan and he was very happy to do this. Everything began well, but then I suddenly heard that he had been expelled from the local dojo. A few days later I was telephoned by the Shibu-cho, the chief instructor of the prefectural organization, who, of course, was my own aikido sensei.

    The chief instructor was very upset by the student's 'blatant lack of good manners' and asking him to leave the dojo was the only way to restore the harmony that had been broken. Later I heard my student's side of the story and listened to a few other accounts. The student was in his 20s and was very strong. He had been training longer than some of the instructors in the local dojo and they simply could not manage him. Back in the US, he had been taught that if the techniques don't work, you don't move. In the university dojo this was less of a problem, for the students were the same age, trained a lot, were very fit and some were also very strong. However, the local dojo had a problem. The chief instructor was a nidan and the dojo had only recently joined the local organization (there are 'politics' in Japan, too) and were trying to establish good ties with the Shibu-cho. If my student had joined the Shibu-cho's own dojo, there would have been no problem, for there are more than enough senior yudansha around and the technical level is higher, but to do so would have involved a long commute.

    However, the point I want to make is that I was the student's university teacher and as such I was held responsible for the fact that he had not showed the manners appropriate to training in a Japanese way in a Japanese dojo in Japan. I gave the student a severe dressing down for lacking in 'dojo awareness', for he should have realized that in Japan there is a political dimension to training, especially for a sole foreigner in a local dojo.

    On the other hand, I considered that a nidan should be able to deal with an ikkyu student, even a strong ikkyu student. The issue went right up to the Hombu in Tokyo, but they tended to side with the chief instructor: the need for correct ettiquette overrode the need to make the techniques work at all costs.

    There was no way that the dojo would take him back (I also investigated this possibility) and the student was sufficiently disgruntled not to want to go back. So I gave him a shodan test just before he returned to the US and sent the papers to his new chief instructor, whom I knew well, with an account of the episode. He received his shodan and, for me, harmony was restored to some extent. His local dojo is on my unofficial black list and I do not recommend students to train there.

    As I suggested, culture is mental programming and etiquette is part of the value system that comes with the mental programming. I think you were in a no-win situation, as I was. The aikido instructor you encountered in Part 1, whom I know, was really offering you a chance to train as he had trained: aikido leavened with other training—not the other way round. You could be forgiven for seeing two arts there, aikido and iaido, with a choice to be made betwen the two. After all you had been alloowed to watch the iaido. Had I been the instructor, I would not have allowed you to watch this part of the training, or would have told you it was off-limits.

    Best wishes,
    Last edited by P Goldsbury; 22nd November 2004 at 00:44.
    Peter Goldsbury,
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    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Mr. Goldsbury,


    Thank you for an equally interesting account.


    Things to be aware of for potential American immigrants (myself ^__^) to Japan.


    -Alex Dale
    - Alex Dale

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    As a foreigner, you are going to make mistakes in Japan. It is inevitable. Do not lose any sleep over it.

    You will meet three kinds of people in Japan, generally:

    1. The ones who are waiting for the stupid gaijin to screw up. When you make a mistake, they will think that it just proves you are worthless pond scum like they knew all along. They will cross you off of their little list, and nothing you can do will get you back on it. These are the "one little mistake=proof of basic gaijin character flaw" people. They will never tell you what you did wrong, since it is not worth their time to instruct such an obvious moral cretin.

    2. The ones who will indulge you no matter what you do because, hey, you're a foreigner, so what can they expect? These are members of the "retards always should be pitied, not scorned" crowd. They can be nice, but basically they really don't care. Usually, these people ignore you. Be happy that they do.

    3. People who will tell you what you did wrong, why it was wrong, how to do it correctly, and why it is important to do it correctly. They sometimes get mad at you when you screw up and maybe beat you up a few times to make sure you get the message (that's how it works in kendo, anyway; I don't know about aikido), but they actually have your best interests at heart. They will accept the fact that you screwed up because you didn't know the right way to act, but they will expect you to learn from your mistakes and work on getting it right. If you do, you're cool.

    Your plan of action is to:

    1. Ignore Categories 1 and 2.

    2. Associate exclusively (if possble) with people from Category 3.

    Grovelling especially will not help; it just makes things worse (the Category 1 type wants you to grovel; when you do, he's got you). If a Category 1 person crosses you off of his prissy little list, be grateful. A person who obsesses about one tiny little mistake is clearly a person who thinks too highly of himself, usually without any justifcation. Such people are not good for your budo practice. No matter how good they may appear to be, their budo is limited, and trying to get into their good graces will limit your own budo. They are a waste of time, and and your best course of action is to get their techniques (if they are any good technically) and ignore their spirit. Learning how to deal with such people is a very important part of budo practice.

    If your teacher/ senpai are from Category 1, you need to find a new dojo. Such people have nothing of lasting value to teach you.

    The chances are that you will not be able to avoid Category 1 and 2 people, unfortunately. However, you need to do your best to search out Category 3 people, and you need to learn the difference between them.

    An important note: some people may appear to belong one category or the other and you only find out later you were wrong. Since people in Japan do not show who they really are right away, be aware that they are testing you to see what you are worth before they take the time to really train you (which is very exhausting work). The way to find out who is who is to practice as diligently and properly as you can and let people reveal who they are in response. If you work hard, the Category 3 people will notice and you wll find out who they are.

    Catetgory 3 people are very rare, no matter where you may be, Japan or anywhere else. When you find them, take good care of them.

    Ignore the chaff, focus on the wheat.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 22nd November 2004 at 23:23.
    Earl Hartman

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    Oh, I forgot: there's another category: those poeple who are well-meaning enough, but who simply don't know what to do with you. Most people probaby fall into this category, actually.
    Earl Hartman

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    I would have to say that etiquette in Japan is because its "Japan" and it has little to do with Budo. Yes I do it in the Dojo. But I do it all day and every day. The minute I step out of the door.

    My approach to etiquette perhaps differs because I live in Japan and teach them ettiquette both Western and Japanese.

    The reason is home life here teaches people very little about how they should conduct themselves outside. I see thousands and thousands each year that can't even bow and say good morning. Some have the table manners of animals.

    I would agree with Earls 1 and 2 and say you will have to go a long way to find someone to be helpful. As mentioned they don't bother but also they sometimes don't expect you to do too much as you are not Japanese and are visiting. I would alsohave to say theres "a lot" of macho types here. Just look at your average Jidai geki with the basso voices and squeaky women. That's not just for show its "acceptable".

    Some really do delight in the fact that you show an interest in what they do. Find a teacher that deals in humanism and you have a gem. My teachers reaction reaction to doing something good is "Damn. Looks like our future lies in the West" or laughingly, "You can't do the demo, you make us look too weak and small".

    We as couple are constantly subject to scrutiny in the etiquette of how we respond to those around us. Last year some otaku actualy told my wife that "she" was her senior as she was born earlier in the same month in the same year!

    When we step onto a plane to leave I can see the weight drop off my wifes shoulders as she starts to feel "normal".

    Ps We try to have a respect for Western etiquette too. Ask Kim Taylor about it.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    I read the essays with relish. I think it's next to impossible for anyone not born Japanese to behave like a Japanese without intruction how to do so. Leniency in etiquette matters should be a given for foreigners, but it is also something by which you might be judged - and discarded.

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    Originally posted by Martyn van Halm Japanese to behave like a Japanese without intruction how to do so.
    That statement strikes very true as most are distinctly lacking politeness in certain ways that completely contradicts overpolitness in other ways.

    I never use the sink in my office that one guys blows his nose in regularly. He is an exception though as most are snot snorters. Just the thing you need to hear as you eat your lunch.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


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    About the only thing I gathered is that they appreciate someone who is circumspect, indirect, non-confrontational and able to sing along to bawdy songs when inebriated...

    My Japanese sensei told me only sailors, criminals and hookers had tattoos. When I showed him my wedding band tattoo and engagement tattoo he coloured and mumbled that I must be a sailor...
    I didn't ask him what he thought of my wife (similarly inked).

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