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Thread: Japan signals end to China aid

  1. #1
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Japan signals end to China aid

    From the BBC News website:
    Japan should stop giving economic aid to China soon because it no longer needs it, Japan's Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura has said.

    Mr Machimura told parliament that China's rapid economic growth meant it would soon no longer need assistance.

    Economic aid to China has been steadily dipping, but still stood at 108.02bn yen ($1.05bn) in 2003.

    Some in Japan see China as a future competitor, adding to already-strained relations between the two countries.

    "While China's economic development continues, we will trim [economic assistance]" Mr Machimura told the House of Councillors, according to Kyodo news agency.

    "In the near future, it will be appropriate that China graduates from our official development assistance (ODA)," he told the session to review the upper house's report on the fiscal 2003 budget.

    Tokyo has cut aid to Beijing for three straight years, and India has overtaken China as the top recipient of Japanese assistance.

    Mr Machimura's remarks follow China's alleged submarine incursion into Japanese waters two weeks ago, and a continuing row over repeated visits by Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the country's Yasukuni Shrine.

    The shrine is dedicated to the souls of the country's war dead, including convicted war criminals, and is viewed by other Asian nations as a symbol of Japanese wartime aggression.

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    Just wondering: what's the formal reason for Mr. Koizumi's shrine visits?

    I think China doesn't really need economical help anymore too. They might need some help for the poor farmers in the rural areas, though.... but they tend to "forget" that issue.
    °oO Laurent Bianchin Oo°

  3. #3
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Originally posted by Shiro
    Just wondering: what's the formal reason for Mr. Koizumi's shrine visits?
    The Yasukuni Shrine is the national shrine, like Westminster Abbey. Unfortunately, 13 class-A war criminals are interred there, so when Koizumi makes an official visit, he's effectively approving of their acts.

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    According to http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/ :
    "During this time of rebirth for the nation an unfortunate dispute arouse (Boshin Civil War). Many gave up their lives for the sake of the nation. To convey to posterity the noble sacrifice of those who worked for the Imperial Restoration, the Emperor Meiji decreed in June 1869 that a shrine be built in Kudanshita of Tokyo called Tokyo Shokonsha. In 1879, Tokyo Shokonsha was renamed Yasukuni Jinja."

    Now, I do understand the fact that it's an awkward situation with the war criminals interred there but in the end, the shrine wasn't built specifically for them.
    On the other hand, I must admit I do not know everything about the situation. Is Mr. Koizumi the first PM to visit the shrine regularly? And what are his reasons?
    It wouldn't be the first time I hear japanese politicians tend to go nationalistic....
    °oO Laurent Bianchin Oo°

  5. #5
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Originally posted by Shiro
    According to http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/ :
    "During this time of rebirth for the nation an unfortunate dispute arouse (Boshin Civil War). Many gave up their lives for the sake of the nation. To convey to posterity the noble sacrifice of those who worked for the Imperial Restoration, the Emperor Meiji decreed in June 1869 that a shrine be built in Kudanshita of Tokyo called Tokyo Shokonsha. In 1879, Tokyo Shokonsha was renamed Yasukuni Jinja."

    Now, I do understand the fact that it's an awkward situation with the war criminals interred there but in the end, the shrine wasn't built specifically for them.
    On the other hand, I must admit I do not know everything about the situation. Is Mr. Koizumi the first PM to visit the shrine regularly? And what are his reasons?
    It wouldn't be the first time I hear japanese politicians tend to go nationalistic....
    No, plenty of other, previous PMs have visited in an offical capacity as well, each time eliciting squawks of outrage from Korea and China.
    Think of this, though, Shiro: When Ronald Reagan visited Germany as President of the US, he made an official visit to Bitburg Cemetery, which in addition to being the last resting place of many honourable German soldiers, is also the site where members of the SS are buried, and the press had a field day with it. Ronnie then put his foot in his mouth (again!) by saing that the SS "were as much victims of WWII as every other German".
    So, unless you think that Ronnie was right, you can't approve of Koizumi's visit to Yasukuni. Unless there's a difference...?

  6. #6
    Washi Guest

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    So I guess that opponents of the war in Iraq will henceforth demand that no US President ever visit Arlington National Cemetary?

  7. #7
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Originally posted by Washi
    So I guess that opponents of the war in Iraq will henceforth demand that no US President ever visit Arlington National Cemetary?
    Are there any war criminals buried in Arlington?

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    Originally posted by Kimpatsu
    No, plenty of other, previous PMs have visited in an offical capacity as well, each time eliciting squawks of outrage from Korea and China.
    Think of this, though, Shiro: When Ronald Reagan visited Germany as President of the US, he made an official visit to Bitburg Cemetery, which in addition to being the last resting place of many honourable German soldiers, is also the site where members of the SS are buried, and the press had a field day with it. Ronnie then put his foot in his mouth (again!) by saing that the SS "were as much victims of WWII as every other German".
    So, unless you think that Ronnie was right, you can't approve of Koizumi's visit to Yasukuni. Unless there's a difference...?
    I don't really approve the visit, I just pointed out the fact Koizumi isn't necessarly paying a tribute to the war criminals. I do understand why China and Korea are bothered by it. What I meant was that Koizumi should clarify his actions.
    °oO Laurent Bianchin Oo°

  9. #9
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Originally posted by Shiro
    I don't really approve the visit, I just pointed out the fact Koizumi isn't necessarly paying a tribute to the war criminals. I do understand why China and Korea are bothered by it. What I meant was that Koizumi should clarify his actions.
    But, Laurent, how do you propose he do that? Any visit to the shrine is de facto approval for the actions of those interred there; a cemetery is only as good as its worst inhabitant. In this case, 13 class-A war criminals are the benchmark by which visits are judged, as with Bitburg and the Nazis when Reagan visited. In both cases, "clarification" isn't an issue; it's clear as day: nationalism. (In Reagan's case, I suspect that he was just too stupid to understand, but that's another issue.) Koizumi isn't a fool, and there's political capital to be made by sucking up to the Japanese right, but that doesn't justify his actions, it merely explains them; i.e., they're a gambit to win reelection. And, quite frnakly, such base motives suck.

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    Originally posted by Kimpatsu
    But, Laurent, how do you propose he do that? Any visit to the shrine is de facto approval for the actions of those interred there; a cemetery is only as good as its worst inhabitant. In this case, 13 class-A war criminals are the benchmark by which visits are judged, as with Bitburg and the Nazis when Reagan visited. In both cases, "clarification" isn't an issue; it's clear as day: nationalism. (In Reagan's case, I suspect that he was just too stupid to understand, but that's another issue.) Koizumi isn't a fool, and there's political capital to be made by sucking up to the Japanese right, but that doesn't justify his actions, it merely explains them; i.e., they're a gambit to win reelection. And, quite frnakly, such base motives suck.
    You got a point there.
    And you probably know more about the shrine than me right now.

    I'll do some research, it's a really intresting subject and it's not coz I think of Japan as a fascinating country that I'll close my eyes on the dark aspects of its past.
    °oO Laurent Bianchin Oo°

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    Originally posted by Kimpatsu
    When Ronald Reagan visited Germany as President of the US, he made an official visit to Bitburg Cemetery, which in addition to being the last resting place of many honourable German soldiers, is also the site where members of the SS are buried, and the press had a field day with it. Ronnie then put his foot in his mouth (again!) by saing that the SS "were as much victims of WWII as every other German".
    So, unless you think that Ronnie was right, you can't approve of Koizumi's visit to Yasukuni. Unless there's a difference...?
    I wonder which SS personnel are buried there, as the majority of Schutzstaffel units were no different in mission or activity than any other similar German army unit, not 'war criminals' at all.
    David F. Craik

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    Originally posted by Soulend
    I wonder which SS personnel are buried there, as the majority of Schutzstaffel units were no different in mission or activity than any other similar German army unit, not 'war criminals' at all.
    If I remember my history lessons well, the SS were more like watchdogs than a real part of the army.
    Compared to the average german footsoldier they did a lot more than just fighting the opponent and I think SS were even responsible for the security in the death camps.
    °oO Laurent Bianchin Oo°

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    Originally posted by Shiro
    If I remember my history lessons well, the SS were more like watchdogs than a real part of the army.
    Compared to the average german footsoldier they did a lot more than just fighting the opponent and I think SS were even responsible for the security in the death camps.
    The problem is that there was no differentiation in rank, uniform, or otherwise between front-line SS troops and the camp guards.

    Even front line SS troops, however, were known for brutalizing civilians and committing atrocities. Divisons like Tottenkopf, Das Reich, and Adolf Hitler have a combat record -literally- to die for, but they were also guilty of mass rape, murder, torture, genocide, and pretty much every other war crime under the sun. Calling them similar to normal army divisions is not always an unfair comparison, but in a lot of cases -especially during the invasion of Poland- SS units were routinely ordered to liquidate entire villages, and they were known to carry these orders out with an almost missionary zeal.

    For all their appearance as military units and all their military training, the early SS units were adjunctants of the Nazi party. They did not have an army tradition of obeying any kind of 'rules' during or after combat. These were not a normal western army fighting to the normal western rules of engagement. Their job was wiping out untermensch; soldiors, men, women, children or otherwise. It was a job that they were very very good at.

    As to the visiting of a shrine with known war criminals buried there. Why not have the criminals disinterred and tossed in a garbage dump? I for one wouldn't want them sullying a national monument. Could it be that perhaps there's a rather powerful sentiment in Japan that these 'war criminals' didn't really do anything wrong? If you ask me, reticense on the part of Japan in actively acknowleging their debased behaviour during the war has gone from outrageous to somewhere inbetween sad and embarrasing.
    Last edited by Iain; 29th November 2004 at 17:06.
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    If I remember my history lessons well, the SS were more like watchdogs than a real part of the army.
    This in a quite common misperception, helped no doubt by movies and TV that always depict SS as goose-stepping, jackbooted, Gestapo thugs. The SS was actually a highly complex organization, comprised of three main parts: The Allgemeine-SS, which served a politicial and administrative role, the SS-Totenkopfverbande, and the Waffen-SS. The Waffen-SS was a military formation, and is commonly thought of as a fourth branch of the German forces. Waffen-SS would become an elite military unit of nearly 600,000 men by the end of WWII. The SS was involved in matters as mundane as security and as bizarre as occult studies. The vast majority of these people had never seen a concentration camp, and it is arguable that many had never even heard of them.

    As an example, IIRC, there were 11 SS Panzer Tank divisions alone - that's a lot of tanks and personnel, and they sure as hell weren't using them to guard concentration camps. Both armored and infantry units of the SS were involved in many battles, sometimes right alongside the regular Wehrmacht.

    A listing of the types of Waffen-SS units is available here:
    http://www.feldgrau.com/wssoob.html

    See also:
    "The Blood-Soaked Soil - The Battles of the WAFFEN-SS", by Gordon Williamson

    "Armor Battles of the Waffen-SS, 1943-45", by Will Fey
    David F. Craik

  15. #15
    Bill Gallant Guest

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    Originally posted by Soulend
    I wonder which SS personnel are buried there, as the majority of Schutzstaffel units were no different in mission or activity than any other similar German army unit, not 'war criminals' at all.
    Correct. There were various units of the SS that were responsible for many thing, including security at the death camps. Some fought on the front lines as special forces.
    Other units of the SS were embarrassed by the actions of the death camp SS personal. When the allies advanced the SS in the front lines stripped off their SS id, so as not to be confused with the death camp guys.

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