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Thread: "Let's see you do that with shinken."

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    Default "Let's see you do that with shinken."

    Fair enough statement, don't you think? This is something said by my iaido teacher in application to kendo. Not with hostility, mind, he loves kendo, too, but I use it to illustrate that there may be techniques done in kendo with shinai that are not replicable with shinken and would thus not be performed in an actual unarmored sword fight.

    What, in your opinion, are those techniques? I have some thoughts on this, but if you don't mind, I'll yield the floor and let some other folks sound off before I comment.

    Thanks!
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Probably most small waza? I mean you COULD do them with a shinken but you would mostly graze and irritate rather than dispatch the opponent.
    Come to think of it, kendo-style taiatari (sp?) where the shinai is touching the opponent is probably out the window...

    This of course coming from a lowly kendo sankyu so take with a large shaker's worth of salt
    Stelios Kalogreades
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    Tsze-kung asked, saying, 'Is there one word which may serve as a rule of practice for all one's life?' The Master said, 'Is not RECIPROCITY such a word? What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others.'
    Confucius, The Analects Book XV Chapter XXIII (c. 500 BC)

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    Small waza as executed by some people wouldn't cut. But I'd wager I can cut wara with what I normally execute for a small waza. I'll have to try that experiment sometime - I don't own a shinken so this will wait for a visit to sensei's house.

    What you can't get with the shinken is the sheer speed of the small attacks - the tsuka is shorter, the blade is heavier, just not happening.

    Suriagi-waza and harai-waza can of course be done but I can tell you that it requires some adjustment - the blade is so much skinnier than a shinai that it really affects these techniques.

    I'm skeptical about some of the nidan and sandan waza that rely on a rebound from the first attack - with shinken if the first attack succeeds, the second one isn't going to proceed quite so smoothly.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by gendzwil
    Small waza as executed by some people wouldn't cut. But I'd wager I can cut wara with what I normally execute for a small waza. I'll have to try that experiment sometime - I don't own a shinken so this will wait for a visit to sensei's house.

    Please let us know what you find with that, sounds like a great idea.
    Stelios Kalogreades
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    Tsze-kung asked, saying, 'Is there one word which may serve as a rule of practice for all one's life?' The Master said, 'Is not RECIPROCITY such a word? What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others.'
    Confucius, The Analects Book XV Chapter XXIII (c. 500 BC)

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    If the man is unarmored and your sword is sharp, a small waza, properly executed against a weak point (artery, joint, etc.), would do very nicely, I think. You do not have to split a man in half to disable or kill him.

    Most kendo techniques done in the way they are done by most kendo practitoners would most lkely result in both parties being killed or maimed, for the very simple reason that kendo is taught and practiced in such a way that people ignore anything that is not a point.

    I was once fencing a guy who slipped men strikes like a boxer. He wouldn't bother to block or parry; he would just move his head out of the way so my shinai wouldn't get him square on the top of the head. I got increasingly pissed, so instead of pulling my strike when I realized I wouldn't be able to hit him cleanly, I simply swung my shinai at him like a real sword. He obligingly moved his head out of the way, and my shinai landed squarely on the junction of his neck and shoulder, POWWW!!!, and he yelped in pain and said "Hey! You can't do that!!" He was relying on the rules to protect him and so did things he would never dream of doing with a real sword.

    Tsubazeriai (as most people do it, pushing the other guy with their shinai and allowing him to push you) is right out of the window, as is the sloppy "If I get him a picosecond before he gets me, I win the point, so it doesn't mater if he gets me" strategy and the "that doh/kote really doesn't count because it was too low/too high, so I can just ignore it" attitude.

    Most kendo techniques, taken by themselves, would probably work fine. But everything would change when you realize that your hand is still on the floor, regardless of whether he hit you on the wrist, forearm, or knuckles, and that you would be dead if you let him stab you in the stomach as you rushed in to hit him in the head.
    Earl Hartman

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    You guys are articulating some of the things I have been thinking, too. One measure I have been using in my head to gauge whether or not a shinai technique is something one would do with shinken is to ask myself if I have ever seen the waza in a kata. Now, I have a limited frame of reference for this, as I only know kendo no kata and some iai kata.

    Which brings us to small attacks. Is it in any of the kata? Yes, an exchange of kotes is in number six, where uchitachi attacks sashi-kote and shidachi counters with suriage-kote.

    In addition, I can do sashi-men and sashi-kote with bokken and iaito but have never tried it with shinken on any kind of target. As Neil said, blade on blade contact is harder with bokken and even harder with steel than it is with shinai.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek

    Which brings us to small attacks. Is it in any of the kata? Yes, an exchange of kotes is in number six, where uchitachi attacks sashi-kote and shidachi counters with suriage-kote.
    Again?

    Yes...small attacks are even in Kasumi Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu (part of the SMR Jojutsu curriculum)...like the first or second kata or something.

    Similarly, people talk about how oshigiri in kendo doesn't work...in Nen-Ryu, there is somekind of an exercise or kata where the practitioner simply lays the sword on something, and cut it by walking forward.

    Not all cuts have to dismember...hamstringing works just fine.

    What really comes out with all these discussion is the assumptions that people already made about what a cut is, and what they are cutting.

    Some assumed armor targets...some assume the cut has to be so absolute the opponent can't draw a handgun from a holster in dying moments to shoot you...etc.

    Before asking yourself "Let's see you do that with shinken", you should ask yourself "To achieve what"...

    Getting off the soapbox now....
    David Pan

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    It really has nothing to do with, "What you can cut with a Shinken" Its all all about technique. Hitting and cutting are different. Stretching out the arms and going straight forward does not simulate swordwork.

    As Earl said theoreticaly both people would be dead if we apply Kendo principles.

    Philisophicaly they also differ. The sword is to learn the heart then pick it up. Kendo tells us to pick it up and learn.

    But I like Kendo too. It does have a place in ones practice and one can learn a lot from it.
    Hyakutake Colin

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    So, it is mostly about attitude, kendo as sport or MA,right? Most waza in kendo usually work fine. I think that kendo people have to learn cutting technique through seitei iai.

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    Originally posted by YagyuJubei
    So, it is mostly about attitude, kendo as sport or MA,right? Most waza in kendo usually work fine. I think that kendo people have to learn cutting technique through seitei iai.
    I would agree to a point. The more you do the more they seperate. If you do Kendo with an Iai orientated person (Nanadan) you are likely to end up with a big headache. They cut down to waist level. Even though they stretch out their arms its a bit of a piledriver. As the footwork is less orientated its not so difficult to get out of the way. Most people have little time for both in Japan.
    Hyakutake Colin

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    What was really driving this thread for me is thinking about what an actual sword fight would be like. I imagine it's not as neat as kata. I imagine it'd by like a kendo match, but more tentative, slower, bigger... I'm not sure, but that's what was on my mind when I first made the thread.

    It does seem to be a recurring theme of mine, doesn't it?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Talking Warning, outsider looking in...

    So as an outsider, I'm constantly struck with how completely different people who do Iai and Kendo seem to look when doing the two arts. Even when watching the kendo no kata, the movements are so very different from Kendo, that I have to wonder. From an outsider looking in, it seems that the two arts are totally distinct within the practitioner's mind, both in mechanics and intent. How much of this do you think is simply the different tools, and how much of it is the insular nature of the two arts? (By this I mean that Kendo, generally looks like Kendo as opposed to all of the various flavors of movements that you see within the various ryuha. Iai/kenjutsu on the other hand is no longer the kind of thing that one goes out and really tests against competeing schools, so it too works within its own paradigm.)

    Sorry to interject, but it's something that has interested me for a while.
    Christian Moses
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    I think I know what you mean, Chris. I asked some of our noobs last night how they liked kata. One said, "Enh, it's okay. It's... slower." All the old hands quickly chimed in on how much they loved it and repeated the old "kendo is kata kata is kendo" maxim. I said that one of the neat things about the kendo no kata is that real swordsmanship links up with one's kendo practice.

    But I think that's what you're saying: one's skill at kendo and one's skill at kendo no kata seem compartmentalized, is that what you're saying?

    Basically, it reminds me once again that there are things we do in the name of sport that veer away from its shinken origins/roots; in particular, I'm thinking of reaching and slamming into your opponent in tai atari rather than standing and CHOPPING. And yet, aren't some of these sporting things techniques you might actually try in an actual duel? I dunno! Thinking out loud here.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Default Re: Warning, outsider looking in...

    Originally posted by chrismoses
    So as an outsider, I'm constantly struck with how completely different people who do Iai and Kendo seem to look when doing the two arts.
    It's funny that you should say that.

    A couple of my iai teachers also do kendo. However, I've never seen one of them keiko in Kendo.

    So, I've waited a LONG time to run into him at practice so I can see how he incorporated his iai into his kendo.

    At one seminar, I finally got the chance.

    Guess what? He didn't.

    He compartmentalized it, just like you said. I think it is particularly interesting that he has a strong tournament background.

    He was using a long tsuka and doing a bit of the push/pull levering, which I didn't expect either...oh well.

    Originally posted by chrismoses
    Even when watching the kendo no kata, the movements are so very different from Kendo,
    Yes and no...I've seen a couple of folks who do kata like keiko...and they are strong too

    FWIW
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    I see the video clip of tenrenjiai, a prewar kendo taikai in front of the emperor. At first glance,it didn't much different from today kendo, not all strike are big. What I think is really different is that there are no head moving to avoid men strike, they really evade all strike with whole body. No excessive tsubazerei,and when in tsubazerei they really serious and quickly seperate with full alertness. There are some taiatari and even kicking,but I can see that they are more concious about avoid shinai edge than today kendo.

    What do you guys think about katate waza, is one hand technic really possible?

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