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Thread: "Let's see you do that with shinken."

  1. #16
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    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    What was really driving this thread for me is thinking about what an actual sword fight would be like. I imagine it's not as neat as kata. I imagine it'd by like a kendo match, but more tentative, slower, bigger... I'm not sure, but that's what was on my mind when I first made the thread.

    It does seem to be a recurring theme of mine, doesn't it?
    I imagine a sword fight being quick and dirty most likely ending at the draw. The longer time spent in a fight the more tired you get the less likely you will get out unskathed. In a real fight you act the same way your trained.
    Joel Habbershaw

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    Originally posted by YagyuJubei
    What do you guys think about katate waza, is one hand technic really possible?
    Ok as long as power is generated with the hips and not the arms. For me that goes for Nito too. So many people can't even use two hands let alone one.
    Hyakutake Colin

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    Default real swordfight

    I think the one thing everyone seems to be forgetting when asking the question "what would a real sword fight be like" is that this question has already been answered. That is precisely what the kata are. The kata are the interpretations and representations of a real sword fight, handed down by those who actually engaged in real sword fights. I constantly am faced with people saying "Well the kata are all slow and unrealistic." My response to them is that the kata are by no means slow unless
    A) You are still practicing the correct movement
    or
    B) Your balance is poor, keeping you from moving freely.

    The kata also (especially with sword) are generally only "unrealistic" to someone who has never had a real sword put in their face, or who has never considered what it would be like to have some try to kill them with a sword. Not some sociopath who has seen to many Highlander movies, or some shodan in kendo- but a elite, trained, individual, who has fought and killed many people with a sword before, and who looks across the battlefield at you and starts walking your way.

    I am constantly reminded of a time in which I asked my teacher regarding a particular sword technique, "Well, why wouldnt the attacker just do this and that and be able to beat you?" My teacher simply retrieved a real sword, placed it in my hands, retrieved another, and assumed Seigan no kamae. It was the first time anyone ever pointed a real sword at me with intention. Suddenly, without any explanation other than the sheer intensity of looking down a 3-foot razorblade, I understood perfectly well why my idea would not work. While anyone who has trained in a sword for a while has had such experiences and understands that I cannot put into words the whole of the experience, a more juvenile explanation would be simply to say:
    Everyone has more balls and skill when they are holding a shinai or bokken. That is why some aspects of kata might seem unrealistic.

    The kata in some schools may still be somewhat removed from actual combat authenticiy since their primary focus is to convey the movement, strategy and "personality" of the lineage. However, all kata that I have seen (originating from classical schools that is) also convey a sense of combat when they are practiced freely by practicioners that have learned the movement well enough so as to execute the kata without thinking, but rather, feeling and intensity This to me is one of the greatest differences between classical and modern martial arts. Both have kata that are beautiful and potentially effective. However, classical kata also includes with it the feeling of combat when they are practiced properly. In the same way that our military has taken the wartime experiences of many soldiers and fashioned them into techniques and drills to give new recruits the feeling of combat, without the same danger, the kata will convey to you the lessons learned by real swordsman and the feeling of real combat. The intentions and feelings contained in kata are never there just for fun or aesthetic purposes. Once again, another difference between classical and modern martial arts.

    My final comment would be this. In the horribly-named movie "Budo: The Art of Killing" there is a scene with two kenjutsu practicioners, I believe both are from different branches of Yagyu Shinkage ryu, performing a kata with shinken, full speed. I have shown that clip to numerous people who had no martial arts experience, and the response was almost unanimously the same. "Thats so awesome! Those guys are free sparing with sword!"

    ;p

    Take it easy. Feel free to flame away or disagree, etc.

    Arnold Davies

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    arnold11 , I think what you post is really good and make sense.

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    Default Re: real swordfight

    Good post, Arnold, but I would disagree on a couple of points:

    Originally posted by arnold11 The kata also (especially with sword) are generally only "unrealistic" to someone who has never had a real sword put in their face, or who has never considered what it would be like to have some try to kill them with a sword.
    You mean like 99% of all martial arts students, someone like that?

    Originally posted by arnold11 ...all kata that I have seen (originating from classical schools that is) also convey a sense of combat... This to me is one of the greatest differences between classical and modern martial arts. Both have kata that are beautiful and potentially effective. However, classical kata also includes with it the feeling of combat when they are practiced properly.
    This just seems a little off base to me. To me, what is put into the kata is dependent on the practitioner, not the ryu-ha, modern, classical or otherwise. What you're saying is the classical ryu has something built into it that somehow conveys danger more than the non-classical. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I don't on the surface agree with that statement. Care to expand your argument?

    Also, not sure what the difference is between classical and non-classical weapons kata. Iai are classical even if many iai schools are not conducted like classical ryu. Kendo no kata are old-skool kenjutsu kata committee'd into use for kendo-ka (unless, of course, your argument is that by doing so the bad-@$$ness has been somehow filtered out of these kata, so they should be disqualified). Aiki-ken and kobudo I know nothing about, so cannot comment.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Hmm...

    Most koryu teachers I have talked to insist that kata is a method for teaching, but it should not be confused with real combat, or "how it would go down" so to speak. I'm going to just have to disagree with you on this one.
    Christian Moses
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    Default Re: Re: real swordfight

    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    Good post, Arnold, but I would disagree on a couple of points:



    You mean like 99% of all martial arts students, someone like that?

    Yes. I consider it to be a sad fact that many sword students have never held a real nihonto, much less cut with one. And certainly, there is some (and I use this word deliberately) MAGIC that comes from having a sword pointed at your face. Suddenly, when your heart speeds up, your knees bend a little more on their own, and your mind goes "WTF!" you start to understand the movements of a kata better because the psychology of combat becomes more apparent. When you couple that with the concept of a battle-hardened warrior whose sole purpose is to kill you, you understand why simply stabbing him shallowly in the leg or slicing him very lightly in the upper arm, isnt going to be enough. The time it takes for you to wound him, he will use to kill you. Thus, you need to make this short, violent, and effective. Quite a different point of view than many schools of western fencing that teach the fencer to wear down their opponent with many attacks, bleeding them to death.

    On a quick aside, I think it highlights the degeneration of sword schools when everyone and their brother tries to show off using tameshigiri, be it either bamboo or tatami. Maybe if you were using a real body it would be more meaningful simply because of the direct realism (not suggesting anyone actually DO this). But to cut bamboo or tatami in an effort to demonstrate skill? What are you really saying? "Look at me! I can cut!" You are SUPPOSED to be able to cut! Being able to cut through something doesnt make you a great swordsman. NOT being able to makes you a pretty pathetic one. Thats like a pro baseball player try to "show off" by hitting balls in a batting cage.

    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    This just seems a little off base to me. To me, what is put into the kata is dependent on the practitioner, not the ryu-ha, modern, classical or otherwise.
    Im not sure what you mean. Could you please clarify for me. Are you saying what actual movements and how they are performed are dependent on the practicioner? Or that speed, tempo, etc?


    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    What you're saying is the classical ryu has something built into it that somehow conveys danger more than the non-classical. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I don't on the surface agree with that statement. Care to expand your argument?
    Yes, I have found (and this is the big waiver-signing clarifier here) IN MY EXPERIENCE, classical kata contain in them distance, timing, tempo, and psychology that are all more conducive to combat than their more modern brothers. Now even in my experience this is not 100% However I think this is a basic difference as a whole between the two, at least in theory. Always keep in mind that there are some classical teachers who probably couldnt fight their way out of a paper bag, and modern teachers that I wouldnt want to tangle with. I know some tae kwon do guys who will eat you up and spit you out. Nuff said. ;p Too much cannot be made out of the article in the book Traditions by Dave Lowry (or as I like to call him, "the only reason to read Black Belt magazine") about Yuyo.


    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    Also, not sure what the difference is between classical and non-classical weapons kata. Iai are classical even if many iai schools are not conducted like classical ryu. Kendo no kata are old-skool kenjutsu kata committee'd into use for kendo-ka (unless, of course, your argument is that by doing so the bad-@$$ness has been somehow filtered out of these kata, so they should be disqualified). Aiki-ken and kobudo I know nothing about, so cannot comment.
    Similarly, I have seen very little Iai kata, so I cannot comment. About kendo however, I will say that whatever the origins of the kata, if they cease to be performed with the same intention, yuyo, and psychology that comes from fighting sword against sword with peril of death, then the kata, whatever the movement, is not the same. Now, as stated earlier, many sword students of non-kendo origin to not perform the kata with shinken. However, I would humbly venture that they should always pretend as if they were. Kendo is, of course the biggest purpetrator of the "game of tag" mentality. We must remember that for those who trained in classical schools of sword hundreds of years ago in war torn Japan, it did not take a lot of imagination to turn the guy standing in front of you in the dojo holding a shinai (or more likely bokken) above his head, into an enemy on the battlefield with a real sword. One should always practice the kata with a sense of severity and danger. I believe it was Ellis Amdur who commented on the sad fact that many practicioners of classic sword seem to stagnate the air around them when practicing a school designed to teach one how to survive when someone was trying to kill them with a sword, and contrarily, the air crackles around those who practice kendo which is a game.

    It is in this that I will admit a possible flaw in my arguement. Perhaps it was not so much the kata that imbued the classical practicioner with the sense of combat, but the times and (in my opinion more importantly) the style of training. The people who like to site how poorly most martial artists seem to do in real combat are not discrediting the martial art, but the realism (or lack thereof) in which most people train. Simply performing a kata slow and steady all the time will not prepare you for combat any more than practicing juggling slow and steady with no concentration or risk will allow you to juggle easily if somone put a gun to your head and said "drop a ball and I kill you." A stretched analogy but true none the less. Nothing makes me happier than to see kata performed such that any visitor would think it randori.

    Arnold Davies



    --"Two man kata?.......yes.....I've heard of such things....." -Random American Karate-ka

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    As a non-Kendo gu I heard you can thrust with your left hand on the very bottom of the Tsuka, is this right as I would not think that a very realistic move?

    (I have never done proper Kendo so I am asking. Sensei has some Kendo armour suits ans every other month we have a session at Iai where we don the armour pick up or Shinai and have a blast at one another but this is just to try to feel the Iai in a close way to an actual fight-although with Iai injuries it gets pretty real as I am sure you will all agree!)

    P.S. Does anyone know where I can get info on Jittejutsu at all as I am interested?

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    Default Re: real swordfight

    Originally posted by arnold11
    I think the one thing everyone seems to be forgetting when asking the question "what would a real sword fight be like" is that this question has already been answered. That is precisely what the kata are. The kata are the interpretations and representations of a real sword fight, handed down by those who actually engaged in real sword fights.
    That's an interesting opinion. I've never had any sensei, particularly in koryu, who made that claim.
    I have always been taught that kata are a method of transmission for learning the essense of the ryu; physically and mentally a way to train the mind and body to naturally use/engage/react in a certain way according to certain principles.
    Differences in attitude/technique/principles are what separate one ryu from another.
    But I have NEVER had a legitimate instructor tell me that kata represented actual combat.
    In fact, in my experience, kata are way too simplistic to represent anything even close.

    Regards,

    r e n

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    Default Re: Re: Re: real swordfight

    Originally posted by arnold11


    On a quick aside, I think it highlights the degeneration of sword schools when everyone and their brother tries to show off using tameshigiri, be it either bamboo or tatami. Maybe if you were using a real body it would be more meaningful simply because of the direct realism (not suggesting anyone actually DO this). But to cut bamboo or tatami in an effort to demonstrate skill? What are you really saying? "Look at me! I can cut!" You are SUPPOSED to be able to cut! Being able to cut through something doesnt make you a great swordsman. NOT being able to makes you a pretty pathetic one. Thats like a pro baseball player try to "show off" by hitting balls in a batting cage.

    May I ask you if you have ever cut? Its a lot harder than it looks, I know from experience. Soaked tatami has the same consistency and resistance as cutting soft tissue. Certain types of bamboo has the same resistance as cutting bone. So a soaked tatami matt with bamboo in the center has the same consitency as cutting through a limb or a person's neck. Or so I have been told by my sensei.

    Kata teach you how to cut, nukitsuke, chiburi, noto, deflect, pari a certain way. Two man kata in kenjutsu teaches you distancing, timing, and countering. These kata also have need for the awarness of the oponent and there weapon as if you don't react you get hurt if you deflect incorrectly you get hurt.
    Joel Habbershaw

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    Default Re: real swordfight

    Originally posted by arnold11
    ...That is precisely what the kata are. The kata are the interpretations and representations of a real sword fight, handed down by those who actually engaged in real sword fights....
    I must disagree most strongly with this.

    Kata are the "grammar" of kenjutsu; a method of instilling the essence. They are a way of preparing the neural pathways, building the body, and forging the spirit for combat.

    But kata are no more a representation of "real sword fights" than is a spelling bee a representation of Shakespeare.
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 3rd December 2004 at 07:48.
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    But lets not forget there are kata and kata.

    Kata/Waza that were formulated in times of conflict and those that have been made up since.

    As far as Iai waza (some call it kata?) Iwata Sensei's answer to, "Can we make up any more?" is, "How is that possible? We don't fight people with swords anymore".

    To me the whole idea of making new ones up is stupid and nonsensical "if" that waza already exists. To me that as bad as making up your own ryuha.

    I have learned a lot of fundamentals from some kata and the basic meaning of Uchidachi and Shidachi although the threat was not there. For that I am grateful. I just see any sense in going overboard with the stuff.

    To me kenjutsu kata/waza are more than grammar. Make a mistake and you end up in hospital. It's the nearest thing I have found to actual combat yet. We honestly attack and honestly deal with it, Its no dance or set of movements.

    I snapped one of my students bokuto yet again last Sunday. Fail to get out of the way or parry badly and thats what happens. Who needs a shinken?
    Hyakutake Colin

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: real swordfight

    Originally posted by Joel H.
    May I ask you if you have ever cut? Its a lot harder than it looks, I know from experience. Soaked tatami has the same consistency and resistance as cutting soft tissue. Certain types of bamboo has the same resistance as cutting bone. So a soaked tatami matt with bamboo in the center has the same consitency as cutting through a limb or a person's neck. Or so I have been told by my sensei.
    At the risk of sounding arrogant, yes I have cut, and I did quite well. But ultimately, the difficulty of cutting through such things is irrelevant to the point. Whatever the difficulty, a swordsman who cant cut isnt much of a swordsman, so it is a funny thing to use as an example of superb skill.

    Arnold

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    Default Re: Re: real swordfight

    Originally posted by Brian Owens
    I must disagree most strongly with this.

    Kata are the "grammar" of kenjutsu; a method of instilling the essence. They are a way of preparing the neural pathways, building the body, and forging the spirit for combat.

    But kata are no more a representation of "real sword fights" than is a spelling bee a representation of Shakespeare.
    And I must in turn disagree most strongly with your statement. I would maintain that the kihon of each school are the grammer of kenjutsu. The kata are the more sophisticated use of that grammer.

    If one wanted to be able to write like Shakespeare, they would first have to learn to write....learn the grammer and the basics, etc. Then they would have to practice writing like Shakespeare. Probably begin with copying what he wrote, then writing the same stuff a little differently, but still with Shakespeare's voice echoing through. Eventually when their style was Shakespearian enough, they could write whatever they wanted and, because they had trained themselves to write like Shakespeare, it would be very Shakespearian. Shu-Ha-Ri.

    If I want to learn to fight like Jubei Yagyu (because, lets be honest, the very first headmaster of any lineage was most likely not some great warrior sage attempting to teach his wonderous methods of combat to an untrained populous, but some guy who was so fearsome in battle that others came to him and said "Teach us how to do what you do") I would first learn the basics of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu: the kihon. Then I would practice that kata which have been developed over hundreds of years via input and interpretation by numerous battle-hardened and experienced people. The idea being that I would learn how to fight like in the fashion of the Yagyu Shinkage ryu. Eventually, if I were handed a certificate saying that I had sufficiently mastered the school and was experienced enough to have a valid opinion (menkyo kaiden) I could add my own ideas. Of course, if I am going to teach someone, I either need to omit the ideas that I came up with on my own that are not present in the school, or I need to validate to my students that what I am teaching is Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, Arnold-ha. The Arnold branch of Yagyu Shinkage ryu. Only the headmaster has the ability to add and subtract things to the main branch. We must always remember that from a classical perspective, if you didn't have menkyo kaiden, you opinion really wasn't of importance to the lineage. Didn't mean it wasnt valid, true, worthwhile, etc. But how can you venture to add or subtract from a school until you have seen the full picture. There is nothing funnier than a student trying to add in his own interpretation to the lineage, only to find out later that his "personal interpretation" has already been taught for generations. Kinda like Columbus "discovering" America....with thousands of Indians already living there.

    I have digressed from the question at hand. I apologize. I can be long-winded at times. Regardless, I would ask this one question. If kata are only about forming neural pathways, building the body, and forging the spirit for combat (which by the way, I dont see how kata would do unless you were emulating combat, thus insinuating that the kata do represent combat) then why arent we still updating them? Why is it so many teachers will respond to the question "why dont we come up with new kata" with the answer "because we dont fight with swords anymore"? Why should experience fighting with a sword matter with regards to creating a kata if the kata arent representations of a fight?

    Please let me know what you think.

    Arnold

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    Default Re: Re: Re: real swordfight

    Originally posted by arnold11
    ...If kata are only about forming neural pathways, building the body, and forging the spirit for combat (which by the way, I dont see how kata would do unless you were emulating combat, thus insinuating that the kata do represent combat) then why arent we still updating them? Why is it so many teachers will respond to the question "why dont we come up with new kata" with the answer "because we dont fight with swords anymore"? Why should experience fighting with a sword matter with regards to creating a kata if the kata aren't representations of a fight?

    Please let me know what you think.
    Diligent practice of kata, or of tea ceremony or Zen meditation for that matter, prepares one for combat by forging the spirit. Emulating combat is not required for developing Budo Seishin.

    We don't create new kata because, having never survived sword battles, we haven't the innate understanding to do so. That doesn't mean that those who did survive combat set out and developed a re-enactment of the battles they had fought, which is what many people (and I perhaps was mistaken when I thought this included you) think a kata is supposed to be.

    Indeed, merely being a successful swordsman isn't enough. There were many great swordsmen over the centuries of whom, if they did create kata, we are not aware because they did not possess the spark of genius that allowed those who practiced their kata to survive and pass them on. That is the beauty of the classical kata; they are not only a living text of the ryu, they are the embodiment of true genius.

    I maintain that kata, even the best of them, are techniques for building ability, and not an actual re-enactment of combat nor an "if he does this I'll do this" system. Rather, just as one must learn sentence structure (kata) -- and, even before that, spelling (kihon) -- before being able to write flowing poetry, so one learned the building blocks of swordsmanship by practicing the kata, but once in life or death struggle allowed the flow to be free and not confined to structered patterns.

    Hopefully that amplifies what I said into something resembling what I mean. Words really are inadequate.
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 3rd December 2004 at 13:06.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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