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Thread: "Let's see you do that with shinken."

  1. #31
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    Originally posted by hyaku
    ...To me kenjutsu kata/waza are more than grammar. Make a mistake and you end up in hospital. It's the nearest thing I have found to actual combat yet. We honestly attack and honestly deal with it, Its no dance or set of movements....
    I hope I didn't give the impression that I think kata are just dance movements; far from it. I find the classical kata to be deep, profound, and beautiful. (The modern "kata" set to loud music and filled with gymnastic leaps and flips -- which one sees at too many American "martial arts" events -- on the other hand, I find to be an abomination.)

    And, yes, performed with the proper spirit they are about as close to sword combat as one is likely to get. Close, but no cigar.

    To make a comparison: I used to practice karate, and I practiced the kata...a lot. I didn't care one whit about tournaments; I loved kata. True, karate kata, as solo exercises, differ from kenjutsu kata (but are similar in many respects to Iai kata), but I think this comparison is valid.

    In my former profession I had more than one physical confrontation. One was a life and death struggle. I can tell you for sure that I didn't bow to my "partner," assume musubidachi, step to the left into zenkutsudachi while executing gedanbarai, etc. The kata in no way emmulated the reality of combat. And yet without the kata, I doubt I would be here to write this missive.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  2. #32
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    Normally I take issue with any statement that describes kendo as "just a game," but I've done so often around here and I'm sure we're all quite tired of it. Besides, kendo can stick up for itself. As I said in the earlier post, a defense of or advocation of kendo wasn't my motive in creating the thread. Suffice it to say that I personally don't think anyone can be an effective fighter without some kind of randori element in their training. It does give me pause, however, when someone like Hyaku, a very high-ranked kendo sensei, says it's his classical training and not kendo that's the closest thing to combat he's ever come (besides killing a feral dog with bokuto, remember that one, Colin? Yikes.).

    Arnold, to clarify: what I meant by what is put into the kata is the attitudes of the person performing the kata, not the technique. I meant I thought the effectiveness of the kata was largely depended on the intent of the practitioner.

    I'm learning a lot here so I don't want to say too much and get in the way of the discussion. It's very interesting to me to see this more thorough examination of kata. It still doesn't answer the question in the first post: what does a real sword fight look like? But perhaps that question is unanswerable.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    P.S. Can we define modern and classical kata?

    To me classical kata means koryu. Iai may qualify, also, though many are classical kata practiced and transmitted in a modern way. Modern kata would include the 20th century systems of Toyama ryu, perhaps Shinkendo, and the like. The dance-around stuff and the made-up stuff that ends up on Baffling Budo I think shouldn't even qualify. Not sure where aiki-ken fits in, same strata as iai?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    ...Not sure where aiki-ken fits in, same strata as iai?
    Oh boy! Now you've opened a whole 'nother can of worms.

    There are several kinds of "Aiki-ken": some are not really swordsmanship so much as ways of explaining Aikido concepts.

    Others, in my opinion, are swordsmanship, though many disagree.

    But like I said, whole different topic.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    [i]Originally posted by Charlie Kondek It does give me pause, however, when someone like Hyaku, a very high-ranked kendo sensei, says it's his classical training and not kendo that's the closest thing to combat he's ever come (besides killing a feral dog with bokuto, remember that one, Colin?
    But he was making a getaway with my pet chicken in his mouth.

    Brian, I think that Ryu list will be in Gekan Budo.
    Hyakutake Colin

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    Ah so...

    The bokken that takes life is the bokken that gives life... to a chicken.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: real swordfight

    Originally posted by Brian Owens
    Diligent practice of kata, or of tea ceremony or Zen meditation for that matter, prepares one for combat by forging the spirit. Emulating combat is not required for developing Budo Seishin.
    Stuff and nonsense. I mean, just absolute, utter rubbish. You need to stop mainlining DT Suzuki. What is "Budo Seishin", anyway? If you think that Budo Seishin is just a set of attitudes or a general approach to things, maybe. But nobody, and I mean no-frickkin'-body is going to learn how to fight by making tea. What an incredible load of crap.

    If you want to learn how to shoot a gun, are you going to call up a French pastry chef and ask him to teach you how to use an Uzi? No. You're going to look in the Yellow Pages under "Firearm Instruction" and look for the guy who, after leaving the army after a career as a sniper, went on to command the local SWAT team for 20 years.

    I had this discussion with my kyudo teacher a long time ago when I asked him about Herrigel and his assertion that one could learn the essence of kyudo by having a Zen enlightenment experience. He just stared at me like I was from another planet. I mean, he had absolutely no idea how to process the question. Finally he said "Zen people know Zen. To understand kyudo you have to do kyudo. Knowing Zen doesn't teach you how to shoot a bow." It was then that I realized Herrigel was on the wrong track.

    You learn budo seishin by doing budo, not by arranging flowers or painting. The fundamental pedagogical approach may seem similar, and certain attitudes about learning may be the same, but that's the extent of it.

    Also, re: cutting. Cutting a rolled up wet tatami is one of the easiest things in the world to do if you know how to swing a sword. I did it successfully on my very first try, and I couldn't believe how easy it was. I only cut single mats, and I have never tried to cut a mat with bamboo in the middle, but a single tatami by itself is absurdly easy to cut, provided 1) your sword is sharp, 2)you maintain proper hasuji, and 3) you generate sufficient tip speed. It is a good test of whether you understand the fundamentals of using a sword, and a good addition to training, but by itself it is incomplete.

    Anyway, emulating combat may not be necessary for developing "Budo Seishin" if you think "Budo Seishin" (whatever that may be) has nothing to do with fighting. (Certain attitudes may be common to fighting and other things, and leaning them through something other than martial arts practice may be possible, but that's a different issue.) If you believe that, fine, go ahead, study shakuhachi or something. But if you want to learn how to fight, emulating combat as closely as you can is the best way to do it.

    That's why soldiers in the army train with weapons as opposed to studying ikebana.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 3rd December 2004 at 19:33.
    Earl Hartman

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    As to the question, "What would a real sword fight look like?", I would recommend reading Aldo Nadi's "The Living Sword; A fencer's Autobiography". In this book Nadi describes in detail an actual duel that he fought. What I think is key to examine is Nadi's description of his thoughts and feelings. You could follow this up with reading Holmes' "Acts of War", and Keegan's "Face of Battle".

    There are some physiological and phsychological constants which effect a person in a combat enviornment (okay, so there is that approximate 2% with sociopathic tendencies who can maintain an even pulse rate under extreme conditions). Loss of fine motor skill, narrowing of vision, pissing oneself are all routine reactions to combat stress. Understanding that some guy living three hundred years ago was just as afraid of being sliced up as someone today, and using that knowledge and a little bit of imagination when thinking about the kata you are performing can help create a better mental picture.

    Personally, the more I read about this stuff, the less and less romantic it seems. So I think that a real swordfight (between two trained fighters) would be visibly tense, cautious, and in the end, very bloody.
    Best regards,
    Bruce Mitchell

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: real swordfight

    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    ...But nobody, and I mean no-frickkin'-body is going to learn how to fight by making tea. What an incredible load of crap.

    If you want to learn how to shoot a gun, are you going to call up a French pastry chef and ask him to teach you how to use an Uzi? No. You're going to look in the Yellow Pages under "Firearm Instruction" and look for the guy who, after leaving the army after a career as a sniper, went on to command the local SWAT team for 20 years....
    I never said you could learn to fight by practicing Chado; I said you could develop the proper spirit by doing so. Spirit forging is, clearly, only part of the equation, but it is an important part.

    I've known more than one excellent shooter who was great on the range shooting at paper, but whom I wouldn't expect to survive an attack because they didn't have the proper mindset.
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 3rd December 2004 at 22:06.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Hi Brian,
    This is an interesting thread. I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Earl's post, and I think that you may have missed his point which, I believe, was that you can't develop the proper spirit by practicing things like Chado or Zazen. Combative mindset is best obtained through combative training. I would venture that something like Chado or Zazen would be an effective approach to reduce phsychological stress after the fact (through their mind-numbing dullness ), but will do nothing to prepare you to deal with the phsycholgical and physiological stresses of a combat engagement or enviornment.
    Best regards,
    Bruce Mitchell

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    Originally posted by Bruce Mitchell
    ...I would venture that something like Chado or Zazen would be an effective approach to reduce phsychological stress after the fact (through their mind-numbing dullness ), but will do nothing to prepare you to deal with the phsycholgical and physiological stresses of a combat engagement or enviornment.
    We all have our own opinions, formed on the basis of our own unique experiences.

    I disagree with your opinion, but that does not lessen its value. Clearly Mr. Hartman disagrees with my opinion, but I stand by it.

    That's life, and part of what makes this forum interesting to me.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: real swordfight

    Originally posted by Brian Owens I never said you could learn to fight by practicing Chado; I said you could develop the proper spirit by doing so.
    How? Is learning how to whisk tea better for this than studying swordsmanship itself properly?

    Spirit forging is, clearly, only part of the equation, but it is an important part.
    I don't disagree. Assuming that the sword teacher has a proper understanding of the spirit he is trying to teach, please explain to me how whisking tea can teach this mind-set better than practicing swordsmanship.

    I've known more than one excellent shooter who was great on the range shooting at paper, but whom I wouldn't expect to survive an attack because they didn't have the proper mindset.
    I don't disagree. Assuming that the marksmanship teacher has a proper understanding of the spirit he is trying to teach, please explain to me how whisking tea can teach the proper mind-set better than practicing shooting itself.

    I don't deny that studying tea may be a pleasant diversion for some people. I also don't deny that, given the right teacher, one might learn to take tea as seriously as one might take a fight with a sword. But I don't see why this must necessarily be so, as you seem to imply, nor do I see why it would be necessary to study tea in order to learn "Budo Seishin" when one can certainly learn it much better by practicing budo itself.
    Earl Hartman

  13. #43
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    Brian,
    I am very much in Earl's camp here as well. We have had several discussions re Zen and Kyudo.
    My teachers in Jo, Naginata, Kyudo and Calligraphy rarely (if ever) discussed Zen in practice. Enlightment was never a reason to practice. Having said that I came to practice kyudo and calligraphy from an interest in Zen. My interest in these arts is much stronger, my interest in Zen is about nil at this point

    We all have our own opinions, formed on the basis of our own unique experiences.
    So, with all due respect, have you mastered Sado or achieved Satori? (mild sarcasm, not severe..apologies) I have done neither.

    Re The Yagyu story about serving tea in a duel. The tea guy won because he bluffed successfully. Didn't make him a master swordsman.


    Eric
    Eric Montes

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    What disapoints me most of all is the inherent disabity of people around me that don't get on together for various reasons. Even now I see so much political posturing around me I could easily just walk away from it and not look back. To me this "is" lack of Budo Seishin. The heart and spirit to deal with a situation even if its not life threatening.

    I know there is no miracle cure but regardless of ceremony sitting down for a cup of tea would be better than mentaly and verbaly hacking down people behind their backs.

    Sitting down and relaxing helps a lot too in resolving our attitude to deal with conflict. We have such extreme ceremonies of the body and spirit such as meditation and tea ceremony but the basic principle lies within. in Japan I see a lot of very pent up work driven people in need of therapy and relief and a distinct inability to communicate. It has its place to hopefully pacify us not to get into the conflict in the first place.

    Once the conflict and threat are upon us? I would go along with a well known meditators theory of stepping up and dealing with matters decisively.

    My apologies if anyone was offended by my comments about dancelike movements.

    It all starts with dance like movements when we learn. But we hopefully, rapidly move on. I can watch a lot do it and clearly see that they have yet to experience the confict it brings and how to deal with it. Even the best of us have to work hard to avoid the tip of a weapon coming down from a great height at all the speed and technique someone can muster. Even if we know what going to happen the "if" and "when" sometimes has us defending rather than attacking at attack. Sen is hard practice.

    My personal feelings about Kendo are that its an amazing method of practice to try things out. But for me offers a sense of false security as I can't get injured.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    P.s. By the way I still defend the rights of the chicken!

    Poor old Charlie (my chickens name) used to come into the house and eat the cats food with the cat. He was one of the family

    I always keep a bokuto handy by the door.
    Actually I was disapointed as I used very little hip technique but soon exposed the white of the bones.

    Death to the feral dog

    Right now I have a problem with the cat walking around on the glass top of my aquarium with a 4 foot Moray in it. If the worst comes to the worst I will let them fight it out for themselves.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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