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Thread: "Let's see you do that with shinken."

  1. #46
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: real swordfight

    Originally posted by Earl Hartman

    If you want to learn how to shoot a gun, are you going to call up a French pastry chef and ask him to teach you how to use an Uzi? No.

    Earl you should know better, never ask any french how to shoot.
    Joel Habbershaw

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    How come every heated thread we have eventually degrades to "What is kata?"
    As I'm sure everyone knows by now, I'm in the same "koryu snob" camp with Hyaku: kata is the way it's been done for centuries, originally by the guys who used to kill each other with swords. The kata are the primary way of transmitting the essence (physical, mental, strategic, tactical, etc.) of the ryu.
    Note that kata are not merely a set of physical strategies "if he cuts A then I parry B..." Kata are infinitely more than that. At first, kata teach you, through infinite, slow repetition, the gross muscle movements that define the techniques of your ryu.
    At a higher level, you learn timing, distance, attitude (when to cut & run, when to attack first, when to go for it even though you'll both most likely die, etc.)
    Ultimately, you have trained to act and react instinctively; physically and mentally.
    How many schools in this day and age still actually train like that? I would argue very few. Everyone else? I guess they're doing "kata", in some sense.
    Anyone who thinks you need 'free sparring' or kendo or anything else to really get that 'real combat' feeling have never seen some advanced koryu practitioners doing kata. It was enough for the people who actually killed each other with swords back in the day, so why wouldn't it be enough for us modern mortals?

    Regards,
    r e n

  3. #48
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    Re-reading the original post, I would like to add that as someone who practices both Tendoryu-Naginata-jutsu and Atarashi-Naginata I often see competitors in Atarashi naginata using techniques (like small, whippy sune attacks) that they would not be able to do with a kata naginata let alone a real naginata. So I don't think that the trend is limited to kendo alone. Aldo Nadi makes similar points in reference to his dule and the different type of techniques employed.

    Brian, I also completely respect your right to your opinion, but that doesn't make your opinion right .

    If your goal in stuying martial arts is personal or spiritual development, or character development (all excellent goals) then I think that Zazen or Chado would probably help. But if your goal is combat efficiency then they would be of little use. One book I would recommend here is Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's "On Killing", which discusses at length the principles behind the psychological training that our soldiers recieve. A key element in "training" the combative mindset is kinesthetic training. Facing another person holding a weapon and actually experiencing the physical clash (please don't jump all over me about my use of the word 'clash' here" of the weapons, and the mental stress which is reproduced through proper kata training are essential elements in developing a combative mindset.

    The engagement in pursuits such as Chado do not provide this experience. They may make you a more balanced person, and by extension a better martial artist if you are looking at character development, but they will not increase your combat efficiency. Now I feel at this point tthat it is important that I express my opinion that martial arts should be about more than combat efficiency (otherwise I wouldn't spend my time studying an archaic weapon art), but you (brian) comments were made in regard to developing a combative mindset, not at character development. There is a great quote that I heard once about needing to be strong in order to survive, but needing to be good in order to deserve to survive.
    Best regards,
    Bruce Mitchell

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    Default Better?

    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    How? Is learning how to whisk tea better for this than studying swordsmanship itself properly?

    ...please explain to me how whisking tea can teach this mind-set better than practicing swordsmanship.

    ...please explain to me how whisking tea can teach the proper mind-set better than practicing shooting itself.

    ...nor do I see why it would be necessary to study tea in order to learn "Budo Seishin" when one can certainly learn it much better by practicing budo itself.
    Nowhere did I state anything about Chado being "better" than Budo for developing the spirit. Nor did I say that "it would be necessary to study tea in order to learn 'Budo Seishin'."

    What I said, very clearly, was "Diligent practice of kata, or of tea ceremony or Zen meditation for that matter, prepares one for combat by forging the spirit."
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    On a lighter note, as I don't like tea, I went to watch a Kendo tournament today.

    It was great fun to watch - the tiny girls screaming at each other was good.

    Interesting to see kendo for the first time.
    Mat Rous

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    I used to have some text online about Gishi Chakai. The Warriors Tea Ceremony that takes place annualy in November.

    It relates to Chushingura. Asano Nagamori and Kira Yoshinaka had at one time done Sohen Ryu (Yamada Sohen) tea ceremony together.

    It was this same tea ceremony night that Kira still observed that the 47 Ronin attacked and killed him knowing he would be at home.

    The tea ceremony is still done to observe the fact that it would have been better for all concerned to have stuck to "tea".
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    Default Re: Better?

    Originally posted by Brian Owens
    What I said, very clearly, was "Diligent practice of kata, or of tea ceremony or Zen meditation for that matter, prepares one for combat by forging the spirit."
    And what I say, very clearly, again, is: stuff and nonsense.

    If you had stopped with kata, or even with Zen meditiation, fine, then we can agree. However, I do not see how learning how to make a cup of tea has anything whatsoever to do with the kind of "spiritual forging" that one needs in order to develop the spirit for dealing with a life-and-death struggle with swords. You have made a statement that it does, but you have offered nothing to back it up. Why do you say this? I simply do not see the connection.
    Earl Hartman

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    Brian is talking about the state of calm and concentration called "mushin", a mental state in which everything not immediately relevant to the situation is discarded so as to have no distractions. This "focussed state" is exactly the same for a warrior in a combat situation or a tea master performing the tea ceremony. The Japanese have elevated this tea thing to a level far beyond having a cuppa. It is sometimes hard to understand why but there it is. Brian is right within the context of Japanese culture [where JSA comes from]. If you don't think that chado is worth anything as per mental training for combat thats fine but brian is absolutely right as far as its japanese context is concerned.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

  9. #54
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    Default Spirit

    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    ...If you had stopped with kata, or even with Zen meditiation, fine, then we can agree. However, I do not see how learning how to make a cup of tea has anything whatsoever to do with the kind of "spiritual forging" that one needs in order to develop the spirit for dealing with a life-and-death struggle with swords....Why do you say this? I simply do not see the connection.
    Mr. Armstrong answered much as I would have, had I logged on before he did.

    I also want to add that I don't believe Zazen or Chado, by themselves, would prepare one for combat -- I only said that they could help to build the proper spirit.

    But spirit without skill is not enough, although it may be better than skill without spirit. But to be truly great requires both.

    This would explain why many of the great swordsmen we know of from history were not just known as swordsmen, but also as poets, painters, calligraphers...even Zen masters and Tea masters.

    That is really about all I have to say on the matter. I don't want to hijack the thread, even though the digression was a natural one that followed the flow of the discussion.

    After all, empowering as it is, a tea whisk is not a shinken.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    The question is, what is the nature of a fighting man? Is a fighting man someone who is equally at ease on a notional battlefield or a ladies' tea, or is he instead a psychotic on a leash?

  11. #56
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    Wasn't the compulsury study of arts like Shodo and Chado oringinally intended to keep idle samurai out of trouble during the relatively peaceful Edo period? I agree with the idea entirely that martial artist/soldiers/police/etc. should have a "code" of ethics to govern their (our) behavior. I also believe that adding the study of other Japanes cultural arts, like chado, can greatly broaden the perspective of anyone studying Japanese martial arts (and in many cases teach some much needed manners ). I also believe that teacher's character is as important as their technical ability (same goes for students too). But I also believe that there is far too much "Zen and the martial arts" nonsense bandied about. Much of this is due to D.T. Suzuki's ridiculous writings, which have influenced a great number of people in the Japan as well as the West (there was a great thread about this but I'm not able to find it at the moment).

    Zen is Zen, Chado is Chado, Budo is Budo.
    Best regards,
    Bruce Mitchell

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    What I am told is that tea was originally a mans pursuit, but nowadays mostly women practice it.

    Now we have Westernized subjects at school. But one of the main reasons I don't teach Kageryu is that there is an absolute insistance from the 17th generation descendant of the Tachibana clan that we should teach all of the old disciplines. It was the old education system. That to leave one out would be bad. Budo alone as a subject is unsufficient. He says that we shuld be trying to instill a good foundation for later life in young people.

    Also here its Bunbu Ichi.

    One of these days if we can get together good teachers from the other disclipines things might get off the ground.

    My old Shihan always insisted that I must at least take up one other pursuit.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
    Brian is talking about the state of calm and concentration called "mushin", a mental state in which everything not immediately relevant to the situation is discarded so as to have no distractions. This "focussed state" is exactly the same for a warrior in a combat situation or a tea master performing the tea ceremony. The Japanese have elevated this tea thing to a level far beyond having a cuppa. It is sometimes hard to understand why but there it is. Brian is right within the context of Japanese culture [where JSA comes from]. If you don't think that chado is worth anything as per mental training for combat thats fine but brian is absolutely right as far as its japanese context is concerned.
    Sigh. Thanks, professor. I've read that book also. Freshman Japanese Culture 101, wasn't it?

    My point is still: why do you need to do tea to get "mushin"? If you're talking about simply learning how to concentrate without being distracted, anything will work for that if you approach it in the right way. I still do not see why specifically tea is necessary for that as opposed to something else, like, say, practicing swordsmanship.

    Yes, a lot of swordsmen were painters, calligraphers, tea masters, etc. That is like saying that in the Middle Ages in Europe, in order to be considered a well-educated and cultured man, a knight had to know how to dance, compose poetry and music, play a musical instrument and play chess (in addition to knowing how to fight). I grant all of that. In such a situation, a warrior might approach tea the way he approaches swordfighting. But that is only because he is a warrior already with a warrior's mindset. He doesn't get that FROM tea, he bings that TO tea.

    That is entirely different than saying that learning tea forges your spirit for fighting and that you don't need to emulate combat in order to understand "Budo Seishin".
    Earl Hartman

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    Hello,
    Interesting thread so far. I can't really comment on the sword stuff but I did have this observation to add.
    If you only lift weights and never stretch you end up hurting rather than helping your muscles. The same goes (on a deeper level)with martial arts, if you only study one thing you will hurt your mind and spirit. You have to temper what you are learning with other things or risk becoming something that no longer belongs in polite society. A little obsession is good, but we do live around other people right? I mean, the very title of this thread for instance. It's so benign sounding to the outsider but this whole thing really boils down to the act of cutting humans with swords. This is not usually something we can just casually share with our co-workers at the water cooler you know? Therefore, we keep tabs on football teams, current movies, whatnot so that others won't think we're always looking at them for a little "practice". But, the truth is, when you go to a football game you don't leave your budo at home do you? Of course not. (Although I find the idea of having left it in my other trousers to be hilarious)
    Some people can cultivate their training while making tea. Some people can do it while they paint. Some people wax on, some people wax off. In any case it is not the tea, it is the attitude in which the tea is made. The combative attitude can only come from training, but you can nurture it while doing other things. Sorry if I'm off base.
    Daniel Garner
    Proud member of the
    Zombie Gun Club
    Denton branch

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    Well Earl, [ insert patronising "sigh" here] you obviously have had no real exposure to things Japanese. My observation was from experience- that means learning from Japanese people how they think about these things. If your only exposure to Japanese culture is from Suzuki's drivel, best you do something about it.
    You may not believe the chado mindset / swordsmanship similarity- which you are entitled to do- just spare us the condescending shite.

    FYI I am not a professor, I just learned a few things.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

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