Tanimura-ha and Shimomura-ha

[Charles Mahan]

As I understand it, MJER is not strictly speaking Tanimura-ha. Oe-sensei combined Shimomura-ha with Tanimura-ha when he created MJER. MSR is founded on Shimomura-ha only as I understand it.

[Maro]

Strewth!

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Charles Mahan
As I understand it, MJER is not strictly speaking Tanimura-ha. Oe-sensei combined Shimomura-ha with Tanimura-ha when he created MJER. MSR is founded on Shimomura-ha only as I understand it.

I heard he was the head of Shimomura ha and moved to Tanimura ha leaving it leaderless. They were not combined.

What no one seems to know is why he just up and left.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Charles Mahan
As I understand it, MJER is not strictly speaking Tanimura-ha. Oe-sensei combined Shimomura-ha with Tanimura-ha when he created MJER. MSR is founded on Shimomura-ha only as I understand it.

It's all rather confused, if you ask me. A lot of mixing and matching went on at that point in time.

For example Nakayama Hakudo practiced Omori Ryu, Muraku Ryu, and Shimomura-ha under Hosokawa Yoshimasa. But he also practiced Tanimura-ha under Morimoto Hokushin.

I don't think there's a lot of "pure blood" in the lineages, but lineages are drawn none the less. I'm working on a "family tree" of JSAs using geneology software on my computer, but it will be some time before I'm satisfied that it's even close to complete and accurate.

[Maro]

Look forward to seeing it

[Charles Mahan]

Originally posted by Brian Owens
It's all rather confused, if you ask me. A lot of mixing and matching went on at that point in time.

Aint it the truth. Note the liberal use of "As I understand it".

To Hyakutake-sensei, I would have to wonder if the head of Shimomura-ha deciding that he wanted to take up Tanimura-ha and then subsequently formulating Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu does not appear to be a marriage of the two ryu-ha with MJER as the result.

Of course the truth of history is always harder to distinguish than the appearance, but it sure looks that way to me. I will certainly bow to your knowledge on this one as I am not a student of history. Or at least not a very good one.

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Charles Mahan To Hyakutake-sensei, I would have to wonder if the head of Shimomura-ha deciding that he wanted to take up Tanimura-ha and then subsequently formulating Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu does not appear to be a marriage of the two ryu-ha with MJER as the result.

Hello Charles, But he didn't formulate it did he. He was the 17th head of Tanimura ha and before that 15th head of Shimomura ha. He standardized and renamed Tanimura ha MJER.

I could never find out exactly why he left Shimomura ha. Iwata Sensei says he doesnt know and we can only speculate. He himself does both too.

He say's, "Eishin Ryu Shimomura Ha (Known as Muso Shinden Ryu) was created by Shimomura Moichi and passed on to the 15th Sub-Master Yukimune Sadayoshi. Then next onto the 16th Master Soda Torahiko., Then Kususe Yoh-ho living in Kochi Ken (Prefecture) on Shikoku Island. As I stated before Oh-e Sensei was the original 15th Master of Shimomura ha. Therefore he must have known everything about the details of it. But in my opinion Oe Sensei used very few technical points from the ha".

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by hyaku
...He [Oe Masamichi Shikei] was the 17th head of Tanimura ha and before that 15th head of Shimomura ha....

That's interesting. I have two Iai "geneologies" and neither lists Oe as being a headmaster of the Shimomura-ha. (One is in Japanese, of which I can't read much, and there are side branches on the chart. I'll have to break out my Japanese names dictionary.)

They both go:

12 Matsuyoshi Teisuke Hisanari
13 Yamakawa Kyuzo Yukikatsu
14 Shimomura Moichi Sadamasa
15 Hosokawa Yoshimasa
16 Nakayama Hakudo

After that they disagree with each other.

Any other information that any and all can provide is appreciated.

[Charles Mahan]

Formulate was probably the wrong word. Reformulate would perhaps have been better. The real question is how much of Shimomura-ha survived in what Oe-sensei was teaching as Tanimura-ha. Some blending of the two was probably inevitable. Interesting stuff. Definitely food for thought. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[Erik Tracy]

I did a chart myself for MJER geneology - just to keep my own sanity when it comes to names - and this has probably been seen before by the regulars here, but, what the heck - I'll toss this out again for review and critiques:




I, too, have read, mostly here on e-budo, admittedly, that Oe S. was, briefly, the head of the Shimomura-ha, but went back over to Tanimura-ha as the 17th headmaster.

Perhaps because his time with the Shimomura-ha as their head was brief, he is not formally listed as such by certain insiders?? Just a guess.

Also, Shimomura-ha existed independently of Muso Shinden-ryu for some time - so it isn't like it was an instananeous thing with Nakayama S. And if it was independent of both MSR and Tanimura-ha, then that speaks for a difference as well, doesn't it?

That there were two distinct branches goes without saying - its there on the 'tree' without question.

I've read some interesting things on Colin's website - especially the interviews with Iwata Sensei and how careful he is and was taught on keeping things clear and separate between Tanimura-ha and Shimomura-ha.

I think that says a bit about a conscious effort to carry on a ryu-ha's lineage and not mixing things up too much.

"Officially" I would think that those of us who profess to practice MJER - as given to us by Oe S. - we would say that what we do is Tanimura-ha.

From the peanut gallery,
Erik Tracy
JKI

[Jack B]

Using a geneology chart for iaido lineages would only work if it was designed for Arkansas families.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Jack B
Using a geneology chart for iaido lineages would only work if it was designed for Arkansas families.

Yes, that's true as I found out early on. My geneology software assumes that each "child" has only two parents and no "inbreeding." Clearly that isn't the case with many koryu. So I have had to use other software too, as things got more "interesting."

I use Family Tree Maker for the basic organizing of data and the simplified "trees" of direct transmission, then I'm modifying them in a rudimentary flow chart program. When I get my new computer I'll get a nicer one, probably Visio.

Mr. Tracy, I hadn't seen your chart before. (I've only been on E-Budo for, what, 14 months?) It has answered my questions about one of my source documents that is written in Japanese. How did you make it (what software, what source information, etc.)?

Thanks for posting it, and I'll be plagiarizing it liberally.

[Erik Tracy]

I'm not what you call on the leading edge of technology - I used Microsoft Powerpoint.

But, I'm good at block diagrams, being an old stodgy engineer ;-)

I used various sources for my diagram: Shimabukuro Sensei is my instructor, so I've read his book and talked to him some too.

I also factored in what there is in Draeger and Warner's book on Japanese Swordsmanship.

The rest has been taken from websites I've visited on MJER - some of which have posted their understanding of their lineages as well as exchanges here on e-budo on various threads from those with more knowledge than I who had tidbits to offer.

Have you tried searching on MJER and lineage or history? (although, come to think of it, some of the saved info I have was from the 'pre-crash' era here)

I merely collected the information and tried to lay it out in pictorial fashion so I could see the relationships - give me a schematic over a text manual any day! ;-)

It's a continual work in progress as others here have provided valuable criticism and suggestions.

I fear this thread has been officially hijacked - so my apologies. Perhaps a moderator could split this thread?

Erik

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Erik Tracy
I fear this thread has been officially hijacked - so my apologies. Perhaps a moderator could split this thread?

Erik

Split the thread as requested.

[hyaku]

This is the geneology from Iwata Sensei's book, Kiso Iai Koza. Comments on this page. Link to geneology is at the bottom. but it relates to MJER. Not to Shimomura and Tanimura

http://www.hyoho.com/Kiso1.html

I added a little with reference to exactly what does get handed down to who in relation to menkyo kaiden. But of course other ryu's interpretation can be different. In some cases menkyo kaiden does not mean "Soke".

But when you get to people of this level they don't generally mix things. Rather an amazing abilty to seperate them to the extent of who did what to a very fine point. Not just a ryu's waza but how a particular teacher performed each individual part of it.

As I have said before he now complains that even some Japanese Judges are not aware of these finer points.

Iwata Sensei's method that fits in with koryu is that we should not only stick to our ryu but try to learn from one teacher. Add to this our own different physics and personality and we have to do our best in passing thing on, not changing them.

When we compare him with the level people like Oe Sensei must have had the mind boggles. Another thing we have to take into account is at that particular time practice was by example only. You could practice for months and no one would even speak to you. They were extremely picky as to who they taught. Even Iwata was treated as an outsider for some time. This is how he arrives at his geneology. The real students who did as they were taught. Other names didn't get listed as they were "passing through". But of course that's not to say that they practiced in good faith.

Nothing has changed much. If we don't turn up regularly we are taken off the list.

Completely off thread but the next issue of Zashi Budo will have a list of each ryu and its seniors.