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Thread: Aiki no In-yo-ho (Aiki no On'yoho / Onmyodo)

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    Default Aiki no In-yo-ho (Aiki no On'yoho / Onmyodo)

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    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:35.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Interesting thinking Nathan. Thanks.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

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    Originally posted by Walker
    Interesting thinking Nathan. Thanks.
    Yeah, Me, too. It's out of my area, but I enjoyed reading it. Hope it blossoms into a good thread.
    Don J. Modesto
    Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
    ------------------------
    http://theaikidodojo.com/

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    This calls to mind a story Ken Nisson passed along from Henry Kono.

    One day, seeing the opportunity to ask Morihei Ueshiba a question, and being North American enough to sieze it, Henry Kono said: "Sensei, how come we can't do what you do?"

    Ueshiba replied: "Because you don't understand in-yo."

    One more data point.

    Best,

    Fred Little

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    Interesting anecdote, Fred.
    Nathan, I wouldn't take the mindreading stuff too seriously...
    Cady Goldfield

  6. #6
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Or...........drum roll
    "Perhaps it is the simplist of all explanations" he says while dancing on that famous razzor.
    Agonizingly precise use of relaxed connection and breath while reading the attacking frame........nawh.
    It must be magic.


    I simply cannot believe I am reading this, or that we are discussing this.

    Sing along to the sixties

    "Where have all the fighters gone
    Long time passing
    "Where have all the fighters gone
    Long time ago....."
    Where have all the magic techniques gone
    after beating everyone?
    I think they never were
    I think they ne...ever were


    He watches as Randy Couture gets "air" in a no-touch throw by Ueshiba!!
    Nathan wake up....nathan...NAAAATHAAAN!

    Whew that was a close one bud.

    me
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 9th December 2004 at 14:33.

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    Dan, you're actually getting funny in your old age.
    Cady Goldfield

  8. #8
    Dan Harden Guest

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    So....er... wadda ya saying?
    I'm old?
    Or I was never funny?
    What?

    Oh to have him alive today at his prime with what we know now. I suspect that the "In-Yo" mind reading would have come from his students reading certain fighters like a book and keeping them away from him. Wait a minute...or did I just accurately describe the past?

    Me

  9. #9
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Nathan and Fred
    No foul intended.You know I'm just kidding -with you two personally- about a view of the larger topic at hand, and Nathan I am most assuredly putting words in your mouth at your own expense. Yes I know you niether said it or alluded to the undefeatable idea. I needed a commercial break.
    Back to work.

    Iiiinnn......yoooooo and so the arrow goes

    Peace
    Dan

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    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    So....er... wadda ya saying?
    I'm old?
    Or I was never funny?
    What?

    Oh to have him alive today at his prime with what we know now. I suspect that the "In-Yo" mind reading would have come from his students reading certain fighters like a book and keeping them away from him. Wait a minute...or did I just accurately describe the past?

    Me
    It's odd how people who are masters of their discipline (whether martial art or other) always seem to be doing "magic." For us lesser-adepts, the subtle movements, tight and economical use of energy, and a knowing eye and mind trained from thousands of encounters are beyond our perception. We see only "magic."
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 2nd August 2018 at 22:12.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Originally posted by Dan Harden

    Oh to have him alive today at his prime with what we know now. I suspect that the "In-Yo" mind reading would have come from his students reading certain fighters like a book and keeping them away from him. Wait a minute...or did I just accurately describe the past?

    Me
    Hey Dan --

    No offense taken on my part.

    Does "reading certain fighters like a book" equal "mind-reading?"

    Hmmmm.....I see this kind of thing as a continuum. Obviously there's a huge difference between "this one means to make some serious trouble," and "he's thinking about painting the moulding eggshell white."

    The anecdote is what it is. Whether that means that Ueshiba had his own ideas about in-yo framed in terms of his own admittedly eclectic non-martial pursuits or if he got some instruction from Takeda in a specific doctrine that exists inside DRAJJ, I have no idea.

    And the conversation reported in English was originally in Japanese. Whether Ueshiba referred to "inyo no mitsu" or "inyo no imi" or simply "inyo no koto" is something I don't have a clue about either. (respectively: "the mystery of inyo" or "the meaning of inyo" or "the matter of inyo") Those word choices might make a big difference if we're trying to draw a line back to one source or another.

    To tell you the truth, I hadn't thought about that story in a long time and Nathan's post called it to mind, nothing more, nothing less.

    Best regards,

    Fred Little

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    Nathan Scott,

    1st – Great job moderating the Aikijujutsu section (though I think a little heavy-handed at times – perhaps too much coffee in the morning affecting the b.s. filter?) Keep up the good work.

    Regarding the book, “Aikido:Tradition and the Competitive Edge” by Fumiaki Shishida and Tetsuro Nariyama, I highly recommend this for the library. Excellent portrayal on Tomiki Aikido and as you stated, a nice section at the end on Daito-ryu. This work was originally published in 1985 in Japanese.

    In “Aikido:Tradition and the Competitive Edge”, the section on Daito-ryu is an overview, taken from newsletters printed by the Daitokan (late Takeda Tokimune Sensei’s dojo on Hokkaido). As best as I can tell, the material was written in the mid 1970’s. I luckily obtained a copy in English (translator unknown) some years ago. A rambling discussion by Tokimune regarding his father’s life, it goes into much much much more detail. Some of this has been mined by Mr. Pranin, but there is still a lot of gold.

    Besides documenting many of Takeda Sokaku Dai-Sensei’s instructors, it also recounts stories from his childhood on up. Unlike the portrayal by John Stevens Sensei in his “Abundant Peace”, it shows a very different character. Besides being multi-faceted in his training, he also studied several esoteric Buddhist sects (him and Stevens would have had some good discussions) and was at times, though certainly a brash man, humble and able to learn from his ‘rash’ actions.

    But back to your excellent point, Nathan. To quote a section regarding his experience with the ‘far side’ of Buddhism and
    onmyodo:
    _______________________________________________

    Through this experience Sokaku learned a great deal about his own attitude toward martial arts training. Until then, he had devoted himself to his training only hoping to become strong and to be able to win in a match. However, he realized that he could not compare with the supernatural powers possessed by the ascetics who could call the clouds and wind. He was clearly defeated by them and deeply ashamed of himself. Sokaku also learned that he had been a man of little faith. Sokaku continued his martial arts training and at the same time began visiting dojos of esoteric Buddhism in various towns intending also to engage in religious training. He moreover visited spiritual mountains in the country for training. Later, Sokaku studied under Chikanori Hoshina who was an assistant priest of the Nikko Toshogu Shrine in Mt. Futara. He studied the secret mind reading technique of aiki and acquired various superhuman powers such as an unyielding spirit, clairvoyant power, and prescience. Although only about five feet tall, Sokaku became a very unusual martial artist and continued to travel around Japan teaching and spreading Daito-ryu until well into his 80’s. Such a feat was made possible only by his superhuman power of aiki.
    __________________________________________________

    Of course, this is a recount by a son of his father, but in the reading, one can see a great amount of detail, and there are accounts he gives when he actually saw his father do things he could not do or understand how he did them. And this was written after he had trained a loooong time. So – a grain of salt while some ‘huuummm’ on this subject.Yes, training does great things but are there great things?

    While Cady Goldfield rightfully is skeptical (as Carl Sagan said to St. Peter, “Well, extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof and you have a nice set of gates here, Pete”), one must remember that a great alchemical sage came up with something called calculus. And we’re not talking figs here.

    Is there an aspect of onmyodo to Daito-ryu and thus Aikido?

    If this passes your b.s. filter, I have some more. Sorry so long.

    Scott Harrington
    scott@aikitools.com
    www.aikitools.com
    S. Harrington

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    Interesting post Nathan. In the larger mystical sense of in-yo and aiki, I don't really have anything else to add.

    As you might already be aware, of course ( ), in-yo and mind-reading are routinely practiced on the mat. In-yo many times relates to breathing patterns, and attacking at the weak point of the pattern is considered very important. Also, metsuke (eye-contact), comprises at least two elements: controlling your opponent with your eyes, and reading your opponent's intentions through his eyes. All before the "attack," or physical contact, begins. And there are the ushiro-dori (rear) techniques. A major, if not the major, point of these is to develop metsuke at the back of your head. To develop sensitivity, in other words, to malicious intentions directed at you that you cannot see with your physical eyes. This sensivity, and timing as it relates to it, are very crucial for ushiro training.

    Nothing that hasn't been discussed publicly many times, and printed for public consumption. But I thought I'd throw it into the mix of this topic.

    Best regards,
    Arman Partamian

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    I think it is worthwhile if one is a historian of martial traditions to note that there has been a record of Daito-ryu/Aikido practitioners who have claimed to have powers of a mystical nature.

    As a practitioner of a martial arts that makes such claims I think one has to ask "How does this information enter my practise?" or "What am I to do with this information?".

    Am I to try to train my sensitivity to the level where I can read the thoughts of others? In the martial tradition that I am being taught, be it Daito-ryu or another, is there instruction provided in this? Which part of the curriculum contains information on this training?

    Nathan, you have the rather thankless job of moderating and infusing a bit of interest in the Aikijujutsu threads and we thank you for you work here. I know that you have probably spoken to this on much earlier threads but I'm wondering about the nature of your own connection to Daito-ryu? I'm just curious as to your own training background and which branchs of Daito-ryu you've been involved with. Thanks once again for your work here.
    Matthew Rogers
    Scarborough Martial Arts Training Group
    http://www.spiritforging.com

  15. #15
    Dan Harden Guest

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    It is possibly note worthy to observe that with todays means of travel, and communication-there is no more legends like Takeda and the lesser but supposedly much talented Ueshiba.
    The romantics say the era and conditions that produced them no longer exists. The pragmatists may have other ideas
    Assuming their prowess was indeed what it was reported to be;

    Why could they not teach others to equal them?
    Why is there no one else that equals them?
    Why is everyone else doing physical techniques that can be explained?
    Were they doing physical techniques that can be explained?
    How much of the physical response we "observe" is conditioned response?
    How much of the attack is trained familiar "clean" attack?
    If this Aiki is profound and effective in a crossplatform format-(assuming then that it is indeed not dependant on trained familiar attacks and conditioned response) why is it not practiced in this fashion against interupted-rythm, stacccato, freestlye attacks?
    Why is there no anti-aiki training?

    Perhaps in the long run we are seeing what amounts to as just a very good martial art? With a dynamic we are used to seeing and can relate to. One where some people get it and others do not. Where some are very good and others- not so much.
    Magic? Mind reading?
    I do not think this serves any good purpose. And indeed it serves to discredit the well deserved efforts of many greats who spent agonizing hours sweating thru repetative training to earn their skills and reputations.
    Cheers
    Dan

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