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Thread: Randori Competition!

  1. #16
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    Hey Alex, lots of good arguements

    The figures are just to make things a little less heated...If they draw attention from the arguement then apologies.

    Perhaps you could let us have some of the ideas you use in your branch, if it works for you then it will probably work for us. Contrary to what has been said previously, I would like to use randori more but have been "tarnished" by previous bad experiences.

    When I was at Hombu in April they used a new scoring idea for randori (groups of 4 people, 2 fighting, 1 judge, 1 assistant judge who also scored, it was set up so that these roles kept changing so everybody "fought" everybody else in that group), this worked really well, and gave good feedback for those taking part.
    I have used this idea ("borrowed" some scoresheets) and it works really well in my branch for practice, I dont think it will be effective on a larger scale, but if it is adapted it might...

    Sorry for the "beating to a pulp" and "saturday night pub fight" comments, they were extreme (but they got your attention )

    You said "We had many doubts before we started this experiment, but with experience from judo and boxing and other competitive martial arts, we have made it work together, and it improves our techniques in many ways"
    The doubts you had then may be similar to the doubts many of us have now?
    But as I said, if it works for you, then it may work for us (sorry there is another of those figures)


    p.s. will sort out the jacket, probably be after Christmas now due to the Christmas post.....
    BTW my e-mail stevecw@freeuk.com
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




  2. #17
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    Alex,

    I think the key problem may be in your statement that the kind of attitude they have in their Branch may be harder to replicate on a larger scale. Within a Branch, everyone knows each other and everyone knows they have to get along after the fight is over. When different Branches get together for a randori competition, people are more likely to see the event as "us" against "them".

    I am glad that randori competitions within your Branch work for you. Is that feeling universal? Can you say that there are no problems with excessive ego as a result?

    I can't speak for the Arai, Yamasaki, or Aosaka Senseis since I have never discussed with them their views on randori. I have spoken to other instructors who I respect who are strongly against it.

    I still see no real reason to practice randori competitively either within the Branch or outside of it. To me the negatives outweigh any positives that may come out of it. I am glad that you see the negatives as obstacles to be overcome. But I still fail to see why competition is a such a necessary part of your practice.


    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
    WSKO
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

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  4. #18
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    Default randori

    Great discussion you guys have going on here...

    I personally agree with those who feel that "competitive" randori has no place in Shorinji Kempo. However, randori is an important part of our art, and finding a way to integrate it in a safe and beneficial way can really add to the quality of a taikai.

    In a few taikai in Japan I've enjoyed participating in, and watching, what was called "participant/demonstration randori". Basically it was taikai participants (following their embu competetition) doing randori as is done in testing situations (in protectors/with designated offense & defense) with a shinpan overlooking matches of 2 to 3 minutes. The matches were of course stopped for warnings, accurate atemi and to cool down those who got too excited. Following the time limit, participants sat down, and no winner was announced. After the matches, the sensei/shimpan and kenshi gathered for a mini study session on the positive and negatives of our randori technique. The sensei also took the opportunity explain the purpose and scope of randori training within Shoringi Kempo. This was followed up by "children's randori" where kids tried to pop baloons taped to each others dos (which had everyone in the gymnasium smiling and laughing). It was a great way to end a taikai.

    Overall, I really liked this format, and recommend it as a good way to include randori "in the true spirit of Shoringi Kempo" into a taikai.

    Best Regards,
    Mike Johnson
    Inuyama Kita Shibu

    [Edited by migjohns on 11-29-2000 at 12:57 AM]

  5. #19
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    Question randori

    Hi guys,
    I'm also enjoying this thread. I have to agree with the folks that are against Randori even though my undisciplined side is attracted to it. It was this part of me that accepted an invitation to a Karate tournament in Japan a while back. I'm interested in Martial Arts, studied Karate when I was younger, and thought it would be a good chance to compare to Shorinji Kempo that I love. I have to say that it was a very important event in my Budo education.

    This tournament was your typical K1 style, to begin with. All was acceptable, baring punching to the head, or grapples. So, first of all, my impression was how inaccurate this was of a real self-defense situation. Imagine the weaknesses in your training here!

    I also noticed that the "competitors" basically "hammered" on one another trying to score as many hits in the alloted time. No attention paid to Atemi. This was very unentertaining(no flames on this please!) and actually became downright ridiculous to watch! Some seemed to be drunk from exhaustion as they greedly tried to consume more points. You can see what I'm getting at here. A total lack of discipline in their art, over pursuit of victory. It even appeared as though they didn't see fellow human beings in front of them, just a punching bag that they practised on in the Dojo. Many of them were Dan levels in Karate, but were fighting about the same as one would with no training! Blocks were abandoned over strikes and head kicks that would receive jeers and applause from the crowd.

    I became increasinly uncomfortable at how different what I was watching was from Shorini Kempo's teachings...As is inevitable, injuries came next. Seeing contestants with bloodied mouths, cracked ribs and sprained knees was the final most obvious indicator that what they were pursuing was clearly of no purpose or value. Seeing worried wives, men who would miss work, and children in the crowd being exposed to it all made me contemplate. It was promoting a selfish perception and total disregard for others that started on a very tame and friendly level, but quickly eclipsed everything else. They had no respect for what they were "playing" with.

    A good example of this was how a higher level competitor had a good edge on the other my striking his knee continually. The other finally was hobbleing(?) around not being much of a threat. It would seem reasonable to just take the odd shot to the torso and gobble the points to victory. The total disregard for another was most apparent when the stronger competitor felt it necessary to land a kick to the other's temple thereby guaranteeing his victory.

    The sum of all this was a firm confidence and reassurance in what Shorinji Kempo promotes.

    I tend to think that Randori competitions would tempt the undisciplined into a more subversive style of the above...
    notice I said undisciplined. Perhaps at higher ranks, after Shorinji Kempo's philosophies are digested and adopted, it could be plausible.

    Shaunessey Joudrey
    Gambatte to all in their pursuit!
    "All buddhas and ordinary people are just One Mind...This Mind is beyond all measurements, names, oppositions: this very being is It; as soon as you stir your mind you turn away from It." -Huang Po

  6. #20
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    Hi All,

    Several points have been raised and I'll try to address them comprehensively without going over too much old ground.

    RANDORI COMPETITION = EMBU COMPETITION: Largely answered by Gary. To clarify, randori competition demonstrates the participants' ability in overwhelming and defeating an opponent. In stark contrast, embu competition demonstrates their ability to co-operate. Embu competition is useful in that it provides something towards which one can focus one's efforts. The strict judging sets exacting standards which participants are required to meet and the competitive comparison with other pairs demonstrates how well they are doing whilst providing incentive to excel. Having said this, that incentive in itself is problematic - the recent BSKF tai kai resulted in a judging dispute that tarnished the event.

    PROTECTIVE GEAR + RULES + GOOD JUDGING = GOOD RANDORI COMPETITION: I've yet to see a randori competition without these basic requirements and still remain to be convinced. I gave injuries, arguments and protests as examples of bad practice, but even when a competition passes without any of these negative elements, the end result is that somebody loses and somebody wins. Despite the best efforts of instructors to ensure that the looser doesn't become despondent and the winner doesn't bask in the glory of victory, this will inevitably be the case. Whilst the former may be a good learning opportunity, the latter is in direct contradiction of 'do'.

    RANDORI = REALISTIC SELF DEFENCE TRAINING: I fully agree with Alex' assertion that dealing with stress, such as that experienced in a randori competition, is a productive lesson. However, let's not kid ourselves; the stress in a randori competition is in no way similar, to that experienced in a real life self defence situation. 'Live' situations have no protective gear, judges or rules. They are utterly devoid of any predictability whereas randori competitions are by comparison, entirely predictable. If one 'gets into trouble' in a randori competition, help is only a "yame" away. The stress in a randori competition stems from a fear of losing face, not losing life or limb. Any suggestion that the two are in anyway similar is at best mistaken and at worst, frankly irresponsible.

    As far as Japan is concerned, I'm pretty sure that randori competition is almost entirely (if not totally) a university thing. Having spoken to a number of Japanese university students, I suspect that Kaiso's U-turn on his original teaching was brought about by university bodies bringing pressure to bare on SK clubs to represent the universities in competition. Imagine the life expectancy of a university football team in the UK if they unilaterally decided that they were only interested in self-development by pursuing the 'art' of football and decided not to participate in competitions. Whatever the reason, it wasn't worth the lives that were lost.

    As for the competitive histories of senior instructors, I remember Mizuno Sensei explaining (with some embarrassment), that his randori success was largely due to tactics. His first move was to deliver a severe gedan-geri to fushi, thereby causing extreme pain and rendering his opponent entirely incapable of performing any technique with efficiency thereafter - not what you might call, considerate. In addition, we recently discovered that mild mannered Arai Sensei was widely known as "The Devil". These are two men for whom I have the deepest respect and I am encouraged by the fact that they are able to see the fault in their previously celebrated reputations.

    My overall concern is this: As previously explained, whatever benefits you may attach to it in terms of recruitment potential or self-defence 'realism', competition contradicts budo. When we feel the natural desire to put what we have learned to the test, that simply tells us that we have yet to learn anything. Learning to relinquish that desire is an essential step on the path of michi and a far more valuable lesson than anything experienced in randori competition. Attaching superficial benefits to randori competition simply sanctions our desire to stray from the path and indulge ourselves in self-satisfaction.

    Later,
    George Hyde

    UCL, ULU, SOAS Dojo
    British Shorinji Kempo Federation

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  8. #21
    alexandertilly Guest

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    Hello,

    - Obviously we have different ideas of randori competitions and different experiences of such events. Everybody agrees that we should not have "bad" randori competitions. But some of us think that all randori competitions will necessarily be "bad" in the sense so vividly described before. Some of us, like myself, Johan (and Steve?) think that the benefits of randori competitions would be important and that we could avoid the bad sides of it.

    - With this said I want to argue against the proposal that competition contradicts budo. There are many different ways to approach competition. For some it might be to beat weaker persons, to indulge in self-satisfaction or for pride. But this has no place in budo. Others compete as a way of self-development, using their oppnonents as aid in a battle against their own weaknesses and fears, and as a way to develop their spirit. This approach to competition does have a place in budo, as it is our own weaknesses we actually fight, and the opponent is the finger pointing at them, just like we point at their weaknesses. In this way we develop together with our opponents, just like in embu. So this approach resemles the mutual dvelopment in embu. The deeper meaning of competition is therefore coherent with the path of michi and an important tool for finding it.

    - There is a principle in Mahayana buddism called "upaya kaushalya", skillful means. This principle says that sometimes boddisatvas can lie, deceive and even kill, if it leads to a greater end. So Doshin realised that nobody listened to his philosophical ideas when he tried to spread them in postwar Japan, so he incorporated his teachings in martial arts training. Self defense training attracted many young people who eventually understood the true meaning of Shorinji Kempo. Today we need to find what attracts the young people, because Shorinji Kempo is a very, very small martial art in the Western World, and if we want to make a difference in society we need to grow. If randori competitions attracts people, and I think so, then it could be a skillful mean to our end. Wearing black hoods and carrying swords could also be means, but I think much less skillful. If we are unable to adjust to the changing world, we will continue yo be a small martial art of little importance to society. If we accept that the conditions in Europe in the 22nd century is very different from Japan 20 years ago, we will be better prepared to preserve the essence of Shorinji Kempo, and to find ways of developing our movement today.

    Later,


    Alex


    P.S. Steve, thanks. And I will send ideas of practising randori, juho and goho, excersises and lots of other stuff. But I need to translate it, and perhaps shorten it....D.S


  9. #22
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    Interesting randori-like discussion going on here. I like randori competitions, and I do see parallels with embu competition. Even though we work together with a partner during embu competition, we still want to win the competition (and I think that means beating other opponents).

    I participated in the Zen Koku Tai Kai at Nippon Budokan last month and the embu competition was amazing, especially at the 3rd dan and above level. The same pair (a man and woman from Kyoto I think) had won that division the last couple of years, and before that another pair won that division the previous four years. Everyone was very excited about the competition and the two pairs actually tied on points, so the judges had to choose the winner (it was the man and woman pair). It was very exciting, competition is exciting to watch and participate in.

    Through randori and embu competition we improve our techniques and our focus. I understand that competition is not for everyone. However, for me, the competition teaches me how to focus better and manage excitement in a stressful situation - I am speaking of both randori and embu competition. I know it is not as realistic as a street-fight scenario, but the added stress is more realistic than randori practice in the dojo.

    There was an awesome randori demonstration at the zen koku tai kai, and it drew the biggest applause and the most interest judging from the audience. There were points and a winner was declared. If Hombu were so against randori competition, why would they feature it at the tai kai, and why would they highlight it on the new video?

    Didn't So Doshin start teaching philosophy, and later add self-defense techniques to attract students? If competition can attract more students, then I think that it is great for Shorinji.

    Peace

    Dax
    Dax Ross
    San Diego, CA

  10. #23
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    Hi again,
    I feel that it is very important to perceive Embu as being different from Randori. Dax mentioned that we perhaps are still being competitive in Embu, and therefore still trying to win or beat other pairs.

    The notion of "wanting to win" is itself an alluring temptation that inherently includes the notion or possibility of failure. It is this "chance" factor that makes it so exciting and very similar to gambling! However, it is completely out of our control and there is definitely no guarantee of success. Different competitors can shine at different moments for reasons completely external to themselves! Nobody is 100% sure they will win.

    However, by applying ourselves 100% to a task as Kaiso suggested as being so important, we are not focusing on "wanting to win", nor are we comparing ourselves to others. Our perception changes. We are only focused on being our best in relation to ourselves. The opposite notion of "not applying ourselves" exists, but we have COMPLETE control over that! It becomes a very reliable formula for happiness because we are ONLY depending on ourselves with no comparisons to others. It is much more difficult to be disappointed with ourselves, as well. We gave it our best! It is this perception that I feel all must strive to attain with "do". We can "win" withought winning! Perception is key. Of course, it's a life long battle...er michi.

    I had the opportunity to experience this important philosophy by, yes, being disqualified from a Tai Kai! The fact that I was 2kyu made it that more enlightening. I was very excited to be involved in my first Tai Kai, and in Japan no less. I trained hard, as hard as I could then! I entered the judging area with my partner, and left after we had completed it. There had been some commotion before the demonstration, but I felt it was due to my name or such. I was high and wanted to win! When I found out we were disqualified because my Sensei had accidentally place us together even though we were 2 ranks apart(not allowed), I was crushed. My true desires came out. I was angry and a host of other emotions because I didn't have the chance. This was something completely out of my control but I was being affected by it so much. I had lost the gamble! I realised my errors in my perception that day. Winning had very little to do with being satisfied with myself. And I was! I gave it my best!

    One more thing, if I may! He had understood the judges discussion so was deflated from the start. I hadn't. Our perceptions were in stark contrast. I gave it 100% as I thought everything was ok. It is because of this that I still gave 100% and was satisfied with myself. Had I understood the commotion, I WOULD HAVE TRULY BEEN DEFEATED! This event really contrasted two directions/perceptions for me within myself. However, Do is an ongoing process...


    Shaunessey Joudrey
    P.S. Thanks for allowing me to share my lesson!
    sorry to stray slightly!

    [Edited by Boris on 11-30-2000 at 09:03 AM]
    "All buddhas and ordinary people are just One Mind...This Mind is beyond all measurements, names, oppositions: this very being is It; as soon as you stir your mind you turn away from It." -Huang Po

  11. #24
    Johan Frendin Guest

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    It´s very nice to follow the debate about randoricompetiton.

    There is one more practical aspect of randori that not been discussed. If we start randoricompetition our students will increase their practice againsed these competition. All other applicationtechniques, such as defense againsed armed opponents and several opponents will then decrease.

    Shorinji Kempo is selfdefence and the question is; Is it possible that we will misslead our students to believe that competition and selfdefence is the same thing?

    Johan Frendin
    Göteborg Branch
    Sweden

  12. #25
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    Just another thought on the competition aspect:

    Talking with a couple of ex-Karate guys about competition fighting, their view was along these lines.

    Competition fighters generally (not applicable to all competition fighters) are very good and extremely fast at 2 or 3 techniques or combinations, and they use them ALL of the time, and because they are so good/ so quick at those combinations they often win.

    Is this what we want to create? Our idea of a "well rounded" MA practicioner will be lost...


    I would still like to see a randori competition work, but the more people I discuss the ideas with, the more obsticles I see, mind you this does encourage me to keep looking perhaps one day....
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




  13. #26
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    This is a picture of an early randori competition, taken at Hombu 1950.



    (apologies to Anders, pic "borrowed" from your site)

    Edited the url of the pic, since I have made some changes on our webpage.
    /Anders

    [Edited by Anders Pettersson on 12-29-2000 at 11:59 AM]
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




  14. #27
    Daniel Latham Guest

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    Hello everyone,

    After reading this string it seems to me that randori competition is probably a bad idea. It does promote poor behavior and recklessness. My sensei did not have good things to say about his university randori competitions.

    Aosaka-sensei and Yamasaki-sensei may have been successful competitors in the past. Do they compete now? I would probably not do well in freestyle sparring with an 18-year old. Why have an event that only people of a certain age would find fulfilling?

    On the other hand, there might be a place for embu competition. Embu is judged on how well a technique is executed on a partner rather than "tagging" an opponent with a random atemi. The only way to win is through excellence of technique rather than aggression.

    This string began with the question "How to attract young people to Shorinji Kempo?" If I knew, I would tell you. I do know that making ourselves more like the sport karate schools is not the answer. They have that market tied up. However, one teen age girl joined my branch specifically because I put the word "non-competitive" in a flyer I posted.

    Dan Latham
    South Oregon Branch
    USA

  15. #28
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    Hi Daniel, and welcome.

    Originally posted by Daniel Latham
    However, one teen age girl joined my branch specifically because I put the word "non-competitive" in a flyer I posted.
    I have also had a similar experience to this, some of the students seek the "non-competitive" arts for many reasons.
    In my experience this is usually the older kenshi, or those who have trained in other styles, some just like to work at their own pace, others see training as a "life experience" (which it should be) and so don't seek the competition element, though will not back away if it is offered, they just take it or leave it (I like to think I fall into this group )

    Keep well :shadowmas
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




  16. #29
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    Hi all,
    Just wanted to make a few more comments on this thread.
    First, why the focus on Randori for attracting students? When I saw Embu for my first time, I thought it was real! So the illusion can exist without any harmful side effects. Also consider that Embu looks SO much better than randori ever could. I'm not saying that Embu is flashy, on the contrary(and necessarily so), but that we train to achieve speed, atemi, and other various skills and they are displayed well through Embu.

    Also, I can see how Randori could attract students if it was restricted to those at high ranks. This would assure that the Kenshi have progressed through the philosophy and have already tried to contemplate what it is they're learning. So, new students would observe it and be attracted to Shorinji Kempo, but by the time they reached the rank to attempt it, would realise that it has little value, or would have the necessary respect for it. Isn't this really what Shorinji Kempo is all about? When we are faced with someone with a gun, the techniques mean nothing anyhow! Kaiso has actually tricked us all into progressively becoming more engaged with it's teachings!
    I also wonder if this explains why Hombu does have Randori in its Taikai's and on its video...simply to attract and mislead in a positive way.

    Any thoughts on this compromise?

    Shaunessey Joudrey
    "All buddhas and ordinary people are just One Mind...This Mind is beyond all measurements, names, oppositions: this very being is It; as soon as you stir your mind you turn away from It." -Huang Po

  17. #30
    dbruere Guest

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    Originally posted by Steve Williams

    "believe me, I have worked as a bodyguard and as a bouncer for several years, and reality is very, very different from the dojo."

    Always thought you were a bit of a nutter Yes reallity is a whole new experience from the "sterilised" dojo atmosphere, but we train to try to make it as real as possible.
    I'm going to disagree strongly with this one.
    If we wanted to make it real we'd wear street clothes and shoes. We'd include crowded scenery (chairs, tables, people etc), impromptu weapons, a possibly uneven or slippery floor, and the 'attacker' would not always attack (at least, straight away).

    I'm currently in Paris and had the interesting experience of two guys working together (one as 'guard') crudely attempt to pick my pocket. That he only got his hand in an empty one saved him from losing most of his teeth, and his tall skinny friend from broken ribs.

    It is nothing like dojo self defence practice.

    Gassho
    Dirk

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