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Thread: Toyama-ryu

  1. #16
    Meik Skoss Guest

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    Guy,

    Thanks for the great breakdown of the groups training in Toyama-ryu. That was very helpful. I didn't realize that it was Tokutomi S. who was in the "Enaru Budo" film. That's a looooong time ago, huh? I recall seeing it in Kabuki-cho, sitting in a nearly empty theater and wondering who the guy was who was pounding on the railroad locomotive as though it were a makiwara. I guess that's real "training," huh?

    However, your statement about Chip Armstrong being graded in Toyama-ryu, is incorrect. He has a background in various styles of Japanese/Okinawan karatedo, Tatsumi-ryu bujutsu, Owari Kan-ryu sojutsu, Hikida/Yagyu Shinkage-ryu kenjutsu, as well as several Chinese types of chop-sockey, but he has never done Toyama-ryu to my knowledge.

    Have you heard anything about a new product, the Battojutsu Vegematic? "It slices, it dices, it cuts eight ways. It's a very personal statement, portable and convenient -- you can carry it on your hip. Two sizes: a large and a small. Get the complete set and you'll be ready to appear on 'The Iron Chef'."

    I wonder if there's a telephone number or an e-mail address where I can get one for a Christmas gift. Have you any idea?

  2. #17
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    Meik,

    Long time, no hear!!! Thanks for responding. I must have mistaken Chip for someone else (Nyle Monday??).

    Speaking of both Chip and Toyama Ryu in a single breath, he wrote, "...Toyama-ryu battodo, for example, is a modern sword-drawing, test-cutting system. While quite effective at what it was designed for, i.e., sword-drawing and test-cutting, it has little or no battlefield application...." (Koryu Bujutsu: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan, "The Koryu Budo Experience," p.7).

    Any idea why he thought it had "little or no battlefield application" when it was actually taught for the battlefield?

    And the guy pounding on the locomotive ... was that Kuniba Shogo? Back in 1970 a former student of his told me that Kuniba sensei used to pound on trains and slice bottle necks -- I just assumed that person in Einaru Budo was Kuniba sensei (he does appear with Hayashi Teruo in the movie).

    And speaking of Einaru Budo [Eternal Martial Ways] ... isn't it great how the title translated into English so well ... "Budo: The Art of Killing." Nakamura sensei said the film did not receive the Monbusho "seal of approval" for two reasons: (1) it included professional Sumo, and (2) because he cut someone's head off at the end. And by the way -- it was Mr. Obata Toshishiro's head!

    Regards,
    Guy
    Skoss Budo Ranch Wannabe (current?/former?)
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  3. #18
    Yamantaka Guest

    Unhappy "CHIP" or "STEVIE"???

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by ghp
    [B]Meik,

    Long time, no hear!!! Thanks for responding. I must have mistaken Chip for someone else (Nyle Monday??).

    YAMANTAKA : Uh...I'm a bit confused...Guy Power first talked about Stephen Fabian(if I'm not mistaken) and Meik Skoss corrected it as Hunter (Chip) Armstrong. Was there some confusion or am I (as almost always) the confused one?
    With all due respect
    Yamantaka

  4. #19
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    Yamantaka,

    You're just slightly confused. Dr. Stephen Fabian is ranked in Hontai Yoshin Ryu jujutsu and also practices Yamaguchi-ha Toyama Ryu iaido.

    I *thought* that Hunter "Chip" Armstrong was also a practitioner. Meik corrected me and I deleted my original comment.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  5. #20
    Yamantaka Guest

    Unhappy

    Originally posted by ghp
    Yamantaka,

    You're just slightly confused. Dr. Stephen Fabian is ranked in Hontai Yoshin Ryu jujutsu and also practices Yamaguchi-ha Toyama Ryu iaido.

    I *thought* that Hunter "Chip" Armstrong was also a practitioner. Meik corrected me and I deleted my original comment.

    Regards,
    Guy
    YAMANTAKA : Thank you, Guy San! When I read this thread, your observation about Armstrong was already deleted and as you told that Hontai Yoshin Ryu has included Toyama Ryu, I made the confusion. I stand corrected.
    Best regards and good keiko

  6. #21
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    Default Here in Michigan we have a few Toyama-ryu instructors..

    Dear Shinja,

    Here in Michigan I believe we have a couple of instructors of Toyama-ryu Battodo.

    We have John Vincent here in Michigan, but we have a couple more people teaching Toyama-ryu around here. One of the top ones is John Viol who has a shihan menkyo in Yagyu Shingan-ryu Iaijutsu and some sort of teaching degree in Toyama-ryu. John Viol is also supposed to have a whole bunch of teaching degrees in Karate, kobudo etc. etc. A couple of Viol's students also teach Toyama-ryu like Kevin Hough and Frank Neppert.
    Isnt there supposed to some sort of American Iado federation thats supposed to keep track of instructors?
    I thought there were alot more instructors of Toyama-ryu here in America?

    Just my 2 cents worth---Jody Holeton





  7. #22
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    Default New web site

    Bob Elder just put up a web site for his dojo at http://www.toyamausa.com. His main dojo is in Orlando Florida with branches in Melbourne FL, Tallahassee FL, and Pittsburgh PA.
    Mike Femal

  8. #23
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    (2) because he cut someone's head off at the end. And by the way -- it was Mr. Obata Toshishiro's head!
    Funny, huh? Obata Sensei said that he was supposed to participate in the film, but had been called off to teach somewhere or somthing (I forget exactly what happened). At least he got beheaded. It would have been interesting to see him contribute to that film - classic, and one of the very few decent documentary's on Budo.

    Isnt there supposed to some sort of American Iado federation thats supposed to keep track of instructors? I thought there were alot more instructors of Toyama-ryu here in America?
    Ha ha ha!

    I think that's Guy-san your referring to! There were already alot of people here in America that had learned "Toyama ryu" from video tapes and books (incorrectly) by the time Guy announced the formation of the USA Toyama ryu federation. That can't be an easy thing to clean up or regulate after that fact.

    Not implying that the people Jody-san mentioned are a part of that group, just that it must be hard to keep all the Toyama ryu instructors in America straight. Sure has caught on here in the states.

    Regards,

    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  9. #24
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    Dear all,

    I studied Toyama-ryu a bit when I was younger. Is there anyway someone could answer some questions I have?


    From the top.

    Toyama-ryu Iaido is really a battodo?

    It is a gendai art?

    Nakamura Taizabura and a board of instructors at the Toyama Gakkou combined styles to make Toyama-ryu for new officers?
    What styles does Toyama-ryu come from?

    Toyama-ryu can be practiced in regular keiko gi (pants)?
    Which way is the blade worn? From pictures I've seen Japanese officers wear it blade down....

    Toyama-ryu actually has real combat experience? But not against other swordsmen?

    I've been told that batto-do practicioners start training with a live blade right from the start. I've seen some schools do that but other schools train consistantly with a bokuto or bokken.

    What are other styles of battodo? Dont most other iaido/iaijutsu styles do test cutting?

    Any input would be appreciated--
    Thanks,
    Jody Holeton


  10. #25
    Hans Andersen Guest

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    It's only a matter of time before Guy shows up and answers most of your questions, but until then, there are lots of great info at an earlier e-budo thread on Toyama Ryu:
    <A HREF="http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2679">earlier thread</A>

    <B>Toyama-ryu can be practiced in regular keiko gi (pants)?
    Which way is the blade worn? From pictures I've seen Japanese officers wear it blade down.... </B>
    Several people at the Kenshinkan dojo wear "regular" pants during training, but most of us wear hakama. We always wear swords with the blade edge up.

    <B>I've been told that batto-do practicioners start training with a live blade right from the start. I've seen some schools do that but other schools train consistantly with a bokuto or bokken. </B>
    Since I started, I've seen several new people who use live blades from the start, but not everyone does this - I have used iaito from the start; it's a lot less scary to learn noto that way.

  11. #26
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    Joey,

    I'd be interested in knowing from whom you studied. Most of your questions will be answered on my website (link at the top right of the Sword Arts forum header "Kenshinkan Dojo").

    If, after reading my information, you still have questions unanswered, I'll be happy to answer them. I could answer them now, but that would make it too easy on you.

    Suffice it to say that Toyama Ryu was established in 1925. Nakamura sensei was teaching kendo, jukendo, etc. in the army since he joined (as a 3rd dan) in 1932 until 1945. In 1935 he was teaching at a middle school "attached" to the Toyama Academy. In 1939 he attended and graduated Toyama Academy.

    See also:
    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...?threadid=2679
    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...?threadid=2308
    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...p?threadid=252 -- actually, you started this thread
    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...?threadid=1837

    There were other threads, but I can't find them.

    Regards,
    Guy


    Moderator note: Edited to changed the path of the links.
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  12. #27
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    Sheesh, okay ... I'll answer the questions now .... but only briefly. I still want Joey to do his own research now that he has the information.

    From the top.

    >Toyama-ryu Iaido is really a battodo?

    Some call it "battojutsu;" some "battodo;" and others "iaido." Nakamura sensei prefers "battodo" because the Chinese characters mean "extracting sword Way;" whereas "iaido" means the "Way of blending the existance." (Can you say "HUH???").

    >It is a gendai art?

    Yes. Established in 1925.

    Nakamura Taizabura and a board of instructors at the Toyama Gakkou combined styles to make Toyama-ryu for new officers?

    No. Nakamura sensei was only 14 when the Toyama Military Academy adopted the original 5 forms. The forms were developed by committee with the able assistance of Nakayama Hakudo sensei.

    >What styles does Toyama-ryu come from?

    Most people say "Omori Ryu iaido." I disagree. The forms feel more a part of the okuden level standing forms of Eishin Ryu (aka Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu). The possible confusion comes from the fact that Omori Ryu forms are the beginning level of Eishin Ryu. Nakayama Hakudo was the 16th master of Eishin Ryu in the Shimomura lineage.

    >Toyama-ryu can be practiced in regular keiko gi (pants)?

    Yes.

    >Which way is the blade worn?

    Blade up.

    >From pictures I've seen Japanese officers wear it blade down....

    They wore it suspended from a chain/strap attached to a leather (or canvas) swordbelt. When used during training, the sword was inserted into the strap, edge up. See picture of Nakamura sensei, below.



    1944, Camp Jinmu, Northern China

    >Toyama-ryu actually has real combat experience? But not against other swordsmen?

    Against both armed soldiers and unarmed/bound prisoners. Sensei taught the "Kirikomi-tai" -- a special attack group who used swords. Anyone receiving army sword training received "Toyama Ryu Iai" training. Many misused what they learned and tested techniques on unarmed civilians and prisoners.

    >I've been told that batto-do practicioners start training with a live blade right from the start. I've seen some schools do that but other schools train consistantly with a bokuto or bokken.

    Live blade or iaito may be used from the beginning. A bokuto (aka "bokken") is good only for safely showing how particular techniques work. A beginner can use bokuto while still considering whether to make Toyama Ryu a long-term committment. You can learn stances and grip, and cuts. But you really need a scabbard and blade to get the draw and resheathing right.

    >What are other styles of battodo?

    Too many to list. "battodo" and "iaido" can be -- and are often -- interchanged.

    >Dont most other iaido/iaijutsu styles do test cutting?

    No. But judging from the comments from most of the martial arts based bulletin boards, one would come to that incorrect conclusion. Tameshigiri is an adjunct even to Toyama Ryu. Most schools of iai don't practice tameshigiri; some do, but it is usually "extra-curricular."

    Regards, and happy research,
    Guy

    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  13. #28
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    Joey,

    Mr. Viol has a ranking (3/4/5 dan??) in Toyama Ryu from Ishihara sensei in Osaka, but as far as I know, he does not have a teaching license. Teaching licenses are "renshi," "kyoshi," and "hanshi." Ishihara sensei and Nakamura sensei are associates of some sort. The last I corresponded with Mr. Viol -- about 2 years ago -- he stated he no longer maintains association with the Toyama Ryu Federation or its politics.

    Howdy Nathan,

    I think that's Guy-san your referring to! There were already alot of people here in America that had learned "Toyama ryu" from video tapes and books (incorrectly) by the time Guy announced the formation of the USA Toyama ryu federation. That can't be an easy thing to clean up or regulate after that fact.
    Actually, I only represent the International Battodo Federation. The IBF is the organ for Nakamura Ryu Battodo -- and it also teaches Toyama Ryu. However, some of our TR waza differ slightly from the All Japan Toyama Ryu Federation (and Nakamura sensei founded BOTH organizations). So there's bound to be confusion.

    Bob Elder (St. Bob the Elder) of Orlando fame has recently founded the North American Toyama Ryu Federation. Good luck, Bob.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  14. #29
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    Default Dear Guy and Hans...

    Hans,

    Didn't mean to scare you by starting with a live blade a few weeks ago :-) Seriously, I am impressed with the Kenshinkan Dojo and all those who were there the Sunday I attended class.

    Guy Sensei,

    Although I didn't initiate this particular thread Guy, I appreciate the insights here,and again thank you from the bottom of my heart for the sincere way you taught your class.

    As soon as work permits, I will be back, at least once a month. In the meanwhile, continue your shugyo and again, thank you.

    Carlos Estrella
    E. Carlos Estrella, Jr.

    The strength of a man is not measured in how much he can lift, how many he can fight or how much he can endure, but in his capacity to admit his limitations and learn to successfully circumvent them.

  15. #30
    bobelder Guest

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    Thanks for the kind words Mr. Power. Hey did you ever think of adding an "s" to your last name so everyone can get it right? Anyway, it may be a mistake to put me in charge of any organization since I am the most "un-politically correct" idiot you know. But they did. And now the Zen Nihon Batto Do renmei wants me to start an American sister group, the Zen Beikoku Batto Do renmei here. Or would that just be All American Japanese sword Cutting Association? I noticed at the last Machida tai kai that all the various competitors, ( speaking for the 4th dan and up division) , no matter what their style, did chuden kata. I was unable to decipher if that was the oficial chuden sei tei for the ZNBDR or some new Toyama Ryu thing. Maybe you know. The gent that won, ( and you know he had to) was a 7th dan MJER sensei with (either) 35 yrs. in the arts or studied since he was 35. I don't speak Japanese and sometimes .......wakaremasen. Anyway, as soon as I find out what is required for an American Batto assocition ( which would not be an American TOYAMA thing) like what members get for their dues, etc., I will get it registerd and open upi to anyone. Anyone that is except whiners and snivelers. I'm sure you've heard from some of the "left coast" guys about the tai kai we had here. Heh Heh! So, over and out! Bob Elder who goes by "sarge" or "coach" instead of "sensei." cause that's the way it is.

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