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Thread: thoughts on tameshigiri

  1. #1
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    Default thoughts on tameshigiri

    On reading about tameshi giri on the net, i came across a website which had this to say about using a nihonto for cutting:
    www.iaido.org
    What do you guys think of this?
    Kind Regards,



    Tameshigiri is the action of using a sword to cut objects (tamesu in Japanese means "try out", while giri means "cut").

    Iaido is the only martial art where one practices with a sword in order to "polish" onešs spirit/heart (kokoro). Tameshigiri is forbidden by the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei, the only specialist iaido organization in Japan.

    There are several reasons for not doing tameshigiri.

    Firstly, one has to consider that the Japanese sword is not a tool, irrespective of whether the blade is live or not. In Japan, the Japanese sword has held a very important, and sometimes mystical, position in society. It is still one of the 3 treasures of the Imperial family, along with the mirror and orb. Thus, a sword is thought to have sacred properties.

    Taking this into consideration, the act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree.

    Furthermore, swordsmiths put their heart and soul into making Japanese swords great works of art. Therefore, using a sword to cut something is a most disrespectful act towards the swordsmith and the sword, which samurai thought of as their soul. (In fact, etiquette towards the sword requires one to treat it with the greatest respect at all times; for example, one shouldnšt step over it, or touch the blade with onešs hands.)


    --- Esaka Sensei
    Jeremy Hagop

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    Huh?
    Earl Hartman

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    the act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree
    That is the most rediculous analogy that I have ever heard. The purpose of a Catholic cross is not to bash anything.Its not a weapon. The purpose of a sword, however, IS TO CUT THINGS. I think the most disrespect you could give an object or its creators is to not use it in a purpose for which it was created. A sword is a weapon. It should be treated as such.
    Matt Rose

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    While both sword arts that I study use tameshigiri, one more than the other, I would have to wait another 35 or so years before I had as much experience as Esaka sensei. Then I'd feel that I had the requisite knowledge base to actually argue his statements with him.

    Since Esaka sensei has been practicing iaido for about 45 years. And since he's the vice-president of the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei (All Japan Iaido Federation), and since he is ranked 10th dan hanshi, I wouldn't consider myself as having near enough standing to be able to refute his statements.

    In my experience, tameshigiri is actually the easiest part of the sword arts to learn.

    Just my thoughts on it.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    I have seen and met a number of high ranking iaido people that dont know how to cut. Seen Nanadan Kyoshi reduce a decent weapon to what resembles a donkeys hind leg.

    I do appreciate the mans ideas. He is trying to step as far away from what is considered to some to be the bad side of swords. Of cutting things up either dead or alive.

    Nevertheless I would consider the practice of cutting inanimate objects to a be a very valid part of sword education. Just as I consider Kendo to be an important facet of learning to deal with an opponent. But I draw the line at bottles full of water, pumpkins and pork joints. javascript:smilie('')
    Last edited by hyaku; 10th February 2020 at 17:03.
    Hyakutake Colin

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    Talking ???

    Originally posted by Mrose
    That is the most rediculous analogy that I have ever heard. The purpose of a Catholic cross is not to bash anything.Its not a weapon. The purpose of a sword, however, IS TO CUT THINGS. I think the most disrespect you could give an object or its creators is to not use it in a purpose for which it was created. A sword is a weapon. It should be treated as such.
    I gotta agree. Do you buy a gun to use as a flower vase? Imagine coming home to see your favorite flowers blooming out of the muzzle of a 12 gauge.
    The idea of not using a sword to cut things just seems useless. If you're not gonna cut, why'd you buy it? Move along. <-- How's that for tameshigiri, Baby!?
    Jon Bracamonte
    Toyama Ryu/Soga Ryu Batto Jutsu
    Former Shorinji Kempo punching bag

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    Originally posted by pgsmith
    Since Esaka sensei has been practicing iaido for about 45 years. And since he's the vice-president of the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei (All Japan Iaido Federation), and since he is ranked 10th dan hanshi
    ... and 6dan kyoshi kendo.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

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    Folks:
    There are a couple well known Koryu that don't do tameshigiri at all. Yamada Sensei only allows us to cut one wara when we're training in Japan, and that's with kata only, no goza. He understands us cutting goza here, because we don't have rice fields handy. Nakamura Taizaburo Sensei use to say you should not cut more than two goza, because it changes the angle of the cut, he told me he hamon'd Saruta Sensei for cutting five at a public demonstration against his orders. Yet there are some Gendai styles renmei that promotions include cutting as many as six goza. Doesn't take any weird explanations like hitting a tree with a cross. Its a simple matter of, if you like the style you're studying and want to stay out of trouble, do what your sensei or renmei says. Where do they find these people?

    Carl McClafferty
    Carl McClafferty

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    Default I is what I is

    Luckily, most of us not being Japanese and not being a frustrated member of a rigid social structure, we feel we have the right to challenge the words of even those of such a great reputation as Esaka sensei.

    While the Nihon Iaido Renmei might be the largest iai-specific organisation in Japan, I am sure there are numerous smaller dojo-specific koryu-ha who feel that
    a) they don't want to belong to a large bureaucratic organisation
    b) the organisations in question do not represent the entire JSA curriculum and
    c) tameshigiri is a vital part of iai

    I for one am a member of one of these large burueacratic organisations but I certainly don't feel that even the chairman of this organisation knows all about the vital essence of all the JSA's.

    Gotta go along with the guys who say that the sword is a weapon and I have only done tameshigiri once in my whole life.
    Andy Watson

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    Originally posted by carl mcclafferty
    Doesn't take any weird explanations like hitting a tree with a cross. Its a simple matter of, if you like the style you're studying and want to stay out of trouble, do what your sensei or renmei says. Where do they find these people?
    In the upper ranks of the ZNIR, apperantly.

    That "using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree" statement was a direct quote from Esaka Sensei's statement on the ZNIR Web site.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    I have only been doing iaijutsu for a little over a month now under Bushey-sensei (sekiguchi-sensei) here in lubbock, texas. I have already done tameshigiri twice... but then again.. the style of swordsmanship we study is for actual combat. It would not make sense if you were in the military and just used a practice gun the entire time. I kinda feel the same is true in swordsmanship (at least the style I study).

    again, I am a noob, and just trying to contribute... I hope no one takes offense to what I wrote.
    Brandon Burkett
    Yamauchi-Ha Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaijutsu

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    In Nakamura ryu we did tamaeshigiri at least once a week. Cutting more than two tatami rolls was considered foolish, since it had no actual relevance to cutting angle [as against a live human target]. Tamaeshigiri was however a fundamental part of the training. High ranking iado [or any other sword derived art ] can have their opinions- that doesn't necessarily make them right. I personally found and still find relevance on tamaeshigiri, just as much as kata and kumitachi training is relevant. I have seen iaido people who couldn't cut a wara regardless of how much kata they did. A large segment of our batto do class consisted of iaido people who wanted to expand their experience of cutting but whose own systems did not include tamaeshigiri [or very rarely]. At the place I now teach at there is a class of iaido/kenjutsu people who claim to do MJER but who have poor posture and don't move like any MJER people in Japan that I saw who eschew tamaeshigiri as "barbaric". Well, good luck to them- I will continue to train as I was taught . I know unarmed style teachers who don't believe in sparring too- I'm just not of that opinion. Japanese people are not infallible in respect to MA, any more than westerners are.It all comes back to what you want to do and whether the emphasis in your given system is self defence or spiritual enlightenment. I believe you can gain both from the study of the arts of war but only if you gain an understanding of those arts at the most fundamental level. Just as learning how to do someone over in the nastiest possible manner unarmed makes the majority of people unwilling to do that except under the most dire of ciecumstances, I believe cutting wara has a similar effect.
    Tear me to shreds if you like . That is my opinion.
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    Hamon'd? What's that mean?

    Lot of interesting perspectives on this thread.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Originally posted by Brian Owens
    ... was a direct quote from Esaka Sensei's statement on the ZNIR Web site.
    There's a ZNIR website?
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Originally posted by hyaku
    ..... But I draw the line at bottles full of water, pumpkins and pork joints. javascript:smilie('')
    How about whale meat
    Ed Boyd

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