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Thread: thoughts on tameshigiri

  1. #16
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    Jez
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    Uh, the purpose of sword was/is to cut.

    Can be a method of spirtual transformation, but that was not its purpose "back in the day."

    What we know of period sword testing is that some sword makers tested the finshed blade on the bodies of criminals--so what would that tell you about the perception of the blade?

    Chris Thomas

  2. #17
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    Esaka Sensei's statement is just about the purest example of the philosophy of "civilizing" iai and severing it from it's combative roots that I have ever read.

    He states very bluntly that the sword is a mystical sacred object that is for training the spirit and not for cutting things. That is, iai, and, hence, the sword itself, are completely divorced from any considerations of practicality. If you accept his basic assumptions about what iai and the sword are for, his statement makes perfect sense.

    As far as Esaka Sensei being a 10th dan is concerned, I hate to sound arrogant, but so what? My late teacher was a 9th dan, and he always told me that I had to visualize an enemy in my heart and perform iai against him, and that I had to be able to cut. We never did tameshigiri, but when I actually did it for the first time many years after my teacher had passed away, I found that I was able to do it quite easily. Why? Because my teacher always taught me that iai was for cutting and insisted that I do iai as thought I was cutting something.

    I can understand why some schools might not spend a lot of time doing tameshigiri or not emphasize it. But that is entirely different than saying cutting something with a sword is like desecrating a sacred object. One should not take cutting something (or someone) lightly. But to say that the sword has nothing to do with cutting is an idea that could only have come to prominence after it became a useless relic of a dead past.

    Without the assumption of a life-and-death struggle (regardless of whether or not one thinks that iai can teach how to deal with this) I simply do not see how the martial arts can train a person's spirit in any way that cannot be easily found in any other discipline. Without the "martial", all one is left with is "art". In this case, what makes the study of the sword any different than, say, dance or yoga?

    A fine example of the complete emasculation of budo. If that is the attitude of the upper ranks of the ZNIR, all I can say is include me out.

    I saw a video of Esaka Sensei doing iai once. I knew there was something about his iai that I didn't like. Now I know what it was.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 3rd February 2005 at 19:49.
    Earl Hartman

  3. #18
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    Earl,

    I suggest you not make assumptions about how Esaka-sensei teaches until you've had a chance to train with him. There is an oppurtunity coming up in September. Diamantstein-sensei is hosting him, and it appears to be open to the public. The koushukai is conveniently located in San Francisco might be an interesting experience for you.

    Regardless of what is written in the above statement, the way you say you were taught and the way Esaka-sensei teaches are quite compatible.
    Last edited by Charles Mahan; 3rd February 2005 at 20:49.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  4. #19
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    And the martial arts world is shaken with the stunning announcement that his royal majesty Earl disapproves of the ZNIR.

    Ohh... how shall we ever manage to carry on now that one of the self-appointed experts (aka internet gaijin "budo gods") has deemed us unworthy.

    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  5. #20
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    That was a little rough Doug.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  6. #21
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    He states very bluntly that the sword is a mystical sacred object that is for training the spirit and not for cutting things.
    Sounds like an old man loseing grip on reality can anyone say o-sensei.
    Don Moore

  7. #22
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    What's ironic about all this from a wannabe academic point of view is that Esaka sensei's comments may have been motivated to combat (if I may use the violent metaphor) a certain romantic mentality of viciousness that he saw during his life, i.e. nationalism conjoined with martial arts, but are essentially just as romantic and nationalist, and as easily to be misused. Romanticism in this sense is not, say, attached to love or Beethoven's music or Byron's poetry, but rather the social and political undercurrents that go hand-in-hand with their cultural outgrowths. Any more and I really will start sounding like I'm developing an article...

    But I would say, from what little I know of the concepts, that just because one is horrified by a "katsujinken" attitude w/ the sword (and rightfully so), to make equally strong statements praising "satsujinken" can be as dangerously interpreted and ultimately harmful. In other words, sure people are forging their spirit and all, but in this sense the ethos changes. Changes for the better, or for the worse?--Those who'd make such evaluations are welcome to do so, but I am not able to. FWIW.
    J. Nicolaysen
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    "I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?

    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

  8. #23
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hey Earl
    Your royalty now? I know you'd like us to think of you as a God But I ain't taking that bait! When did we get to vote on this? Hah!


    Well now Doug
    I would personally take a few statements from Earl over hundreds of the posts I now read here on a regular basis.

    The emasculated-Iai approach that was presented here, while it may BE -only- a statement (learn the Japanese way of reading things that are "said"), It also may indeed -BE- representative of a mindset.
    If so don't be surprised that many Budo men would have little interest in such flowery rubbish. It matters little what credentials one has. This man, like many others, has contemporaries who are equals and/or supperiors who would argue that flowery view fervently.

    I, for one, have no dog in the fight, do what you like. Statements and views, grand or not, and acclamations or ackowledgment by some suburban white guy of some Japanese guys skill have little to do with the reality of things. Approvals and reccomendations of some guys fighting skill has sent many men wandering to and fro, and has as often as not- proved to be a wasted trip. Just ask men who have been around awhile.

    In the end you will do as you like anyway why fight? As we grow we learn, as we learn we may change and see things differently.

    I for one am just glad my car mechanic doesn't fawn over his tools and the mechanics mindset and spirit. Though I did see him slide across the floor once!
    When I go to see him he can actually use his tools. Truly! Isn't that amazing? He actually picks up a tool and uses it as it was meant to be used! No Lie.
    I go back to him often.
    I like my Budo that way as well.

    cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 3rd February 2005 at 21:39.

  9. #24
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    Whether I or anyone else disapproves of someone else's budo practice should really be of little or no concern to them.

    It is quite true that Esaka Sensei's comments could very well be a kind of tatemae (public insincerity) designed to combat the over-romaticisation of the violence inherent in the practice of swordfighting. That is something I hadn't considered. However, if his statement actually expresses his true feelings, then I have to say that learning budo from a person with such an attitude is not something in which I have any interest.

    For me, the value of the sword in "polishing the spirit" lies precisely in the fact that it is a deadly weapon which must be treated with the respect such a weapon deserves. That is, one should be, on a certain level, afraid of one's sword. Without this fear there is no real respect. (I learned this when I started doing iai with a real blade.) Iai divorced from this does not particularly interest me.

    I am acquainted with Diamantstein Sensei and a long time ago we practiced together very briefly. The MJER he had learned was very, very different from what I learned, and it soon became obvious to both of us that unless I was willing to change what I was doing it was sort of pointless for us to practice together, so we stopped. However, the fact that I have a different view of iai certainly does not invalidate what Diamantstein Sensei does. All it means is that I am not interested in it. I am sure that this matters little or nothing to Diamantstein Sensei, which is as it should be. At any rate, we parted amicably, and I hope he is doing well.

    Just to give some perspective, I also have a tape of Iwata Norikazu Sensei doing iai. Whle certain aspects of his technique are different from what I learned, his iai is much closer to that of my teacher than what I saw on Esaka Sensei's tape. When he swung his sword, I said" Yep, he knows how to CUT." Needless to say, I found his iai very compelling. Esaka Sensei's iai was very pretty, very artful, very precise, very refined, very fastidious. He was clearly in full control of his art. But it did not move me in any way.

    Royal majesty? Internet budo god? When was I promoted?
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 3rd February 2005 at 21:38.
    Earl Hartman

  10. #25
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    Oh, nicojo, I think you may have gotten "katsujinken" (the sword of the living person", sometmes calld "the sword which gives life") and "satsuninto" (satsujinken) ("the dead sword", sometimes called "the sword which takes life") mixed up. I can't imagine anyone being horrified by the "life-giving sword".

    Pardon me if I have misunderstood you.
    Earl Hartman

  11. #26
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    Default Thanks to po-mo...

    Tatemae--interesting. A word I had forgotten, thanks.

    There is romantic view of killing people and romantic view of saving people. Romanticism gets in the way of reality in either case! Some people are romantic about reality, somehow. Romanticism may be fine, but be aware of it in any case. The tao of nicojo FWIW. (I am working on a sage-like beard) EDITED TO SAY: Arg Mr. Hartman you are right about my mix-up. I hope the idea has a little bit of worth. There goes my sage-like beard--I am shaving it tomorrow. But in my defense, after having bought a bunch of budo classics like Gorin and Tesshu a few years ago, I have decided to let them gather dust until I can have a basis for understanding them. I know I don't have it yet. So caveat emptor with everything I write.

    ---
    Membership in the ZNIR does not, I believe, preclude a ryu's practice of tameshigiri. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But I think it is the same as seitei being addendum to ryu kata, not overtaking it, and so perhaps Esaka's words may reflect ZNIR philosophy but not be intended to overtake a member ryu's philosophy.

    As has been mentioned elsewhere on e-budo, though, intent and reality may conflict and some ryu adopt one...

    ---
    Though I did see him slide across the floor once!
    Yeah but was he wearing hakama or on his back on a board with wheels?
    J. Nicolaysen
    -------
    "I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?

    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

  12. #27
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    That's an interesting question. I'm not sure if the ban only applies to MJER or to the other koryu within the ZNIR. I don't know if the ZNIR leadership has that kind of power over it's member koryu. I suspect that tameshigiri does not appear at official ZNIR events, but that doesn't mean it isn't done at ryu-ha only events. No idea.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  13. #28
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Since it was mentioned elsewhere, it is worthwhile noting that the concepts of Katsujinken and satsujinken have contained in themselves a tacit awareness. Think of it like a Soldier talking to a soldier. There is much left unsaid when one is making certain statements to a presumably learned crowd.

    Here, you cannot express "the life giving sword"-meant to denote the ability, (may I repeat that?) The A-B-I-L-I-T-Y- to defeat a foe to supposedly save the many. Unless you were able to do that very thing. There is the rub. There was, and is, an implicit understanding; one soldier to another, of being able to use it as a tool and use it well enough to insure victory, thus saving and preserving innocent life.
    It was, and is, an admonishment of "Peace through the strength of arms."
    It serves no purpose to talk, pick it up, or think of it in any other way. It is a dishonor to the tool and to the generations who used it. Better to just put it down and walk away. Let the truth of it die, unchanged or tainted.

    I am mindful of an Aikido 8th Dan who said in Aikido Journal in the late eighties "When I see the Aikido practiced today I am afraid the only peaceful conclusion any of these Aikidoka will ever see is that when they are lying unconscious at the feet of their foe. Their art is empty."

    There is way of doing a thing that is mindful of the merits of the thing you are supposedly doing, and there is an empty way that is the outer form only.

    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 3rd February 2005 at 22:15.

  14. #29
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    Originally posted by Judo_Iaidoka
    Sounds like an old man loseing grip on reality can anyone say o-sensei.
    Or someone trying to get permission to study an illegal art (occupation), or someone who's deeply spiritual in a way not understood by others. Yeah, I'd say it sounds a lot like O-Sensei.

    Different arts and teachers will have different thoughts on their arts. Takamura Sensei of TSYR's thoughts on tameshigiri were posted here a while back and were very different, but also clearly stated. Neither one jives with how my school approaches tameshigiri, but they are both interesting to read, but I realize I'm looking in from the outside and that will always cloud my veiw.

    all for now...
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  15. #30
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    Charlie:

    "hamon" as to be given the boot. I added "'d". :~)

    Carl McClafferty
    Carl McClafferty

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