Likes Likes:  0
Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 99

Thread: thoughts on tameshigiri

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Denton, Tx
    Posts
    1,237
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    It goes both ways though. You can't reach any meaningful conclusions about someone's budo based on a single statement.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    JAPAN
    Posts
    1,620
    Likes (received)
    108

    Default

    But needless to say a lot of these people are awarded these positions partly based on their philosophical attitudes.

    I know that we are supposed to tow the line over here in some respects but I would not have said that his views are entirely representative of the budo community.

    Its hard enough as it is to appreciate the reality of what would happen if we really used a sword. That really is part of the learning process that teaches us as Musashi said, Learn your weapons well "in case" you are attacked.

    To me tameshigiri tests not only the mind and the weapon but gives us an indication of the horror we can inflict.

    Maybe in the case of our aged teachers they actually saw that horror and would simply be saying "Look believe you me I know what these weapons can do. Take my word for it we don't need to practice cutting things up.

    Sometimes it pays to be more direct. Especially for the Westerners that always need to know "Why" instead of just doing it.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Palo Alto, Ca, USA
    Posts
    1,324
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    In my iai class in Japan we were discussing cutting one day, and there was a man who said that he had executed prisoners with his sword in WWII.

    He said that if 1)your hasuji was correct, 2)you were properly relaxed, 3)your tenouchi was correct and 4)you struck accurately between the vertabrae, cutting a head off was "like cutting tofu". He said that guys ruined their swords when they were nervous and had a stiff arms and a bad tenouchi, which would cause the stroke to go awry, driving the blade crookedly into the chin or skull, with the result that the sword was either chipped or bent.

    We never spoke after that, as I remember.

    The bushi, or at least those among the bushi with the correct understanding, understood that weapons of war were inauspicious and should never be used except in the last resort. It seems to me that only a person who believes that a sword is a real weapon and truly understands how dangerous it is can impress upon a student the real truth of that.
    Earl Hartman

  4. #49
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    JAPAN
    Posts
    1,620
    Likes (received)
    108

    Default

    One teacher tells me he botched up a Kaishaku of a senior officer and has spent the rest his life trying to cut right and correct an embarrasing mistake.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Chelsea, London & Souka, Saitama-ken
    Posts
    1,284
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Since we're going into recollections, I thought I might add my little anecdote.

    During my third year in Japan, I was at a shrine for an embu. A lot of people were preparing, getting into their hakama and uwagi. Someone from a different ryuha asked my nationality. If you're Irish, you automatically get categorized as "Igirisujin".

    A certain person demonstrating kenjutsu. Laughed and said, "I used to kill boys like you". Needless to say, I was impressed.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    North Queensland Australia. On the barrier reef.
    Posts
    1,253
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Perhaps a witty reply like

    " you mean unarmed POW's, you ignorant moron?" or perhaps I'm being harsh. I was at karate dojo in Shizuoka one time where because I was a gaijin and obviously out of condition, the lads decided to bash the gaijin. After I walloped a couple they all decided they didn't want to play with the big old fat boy. Amazing how while you might have been out of training for a bit, your timing seems to stay around. Maybe another reply would be
    "Like to try now?"

    Every country has it's morons.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    359
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    While I am a proponent of teh practice of tameshigiri, I do think that it is the current "in thing" or fad to hit the MA scene. I am reminded of when I started studying karate in the early 80's and would go down to the local newstand to pick up a copy of Black Belt Magazine. It would frequently have a cover shot of some idiot breaking boards, ice, tiles, bricks, etc. And more than any thing in the world, I wanted to be that idiot.

    Is the ability to break boards a true indicator of a person's ability to actually use their martial art? No. Is it a useful practice to test focus, timing, and technique. To a limited extent, yes.

    And let's face it, test cutting is fun, it gets the blood pumping, and it feels like you've really accomplished something. Not like doing kata where you struggle, struggle, struggle to get things right, like coordinated body movement, timing, proper feeling, and just plain remember the darn things in the correct order.

    But at the end of the day, it's really the study of kata that's more important. I recall Nathan Scott making a point in another thread that tameshigiri is only a small part (although an important one) of the Shinkendo curriculum. I wouldn't be suprised to hear that it is the same for Toyama Ryu.
    Best regards,
    Bruce Mitchell

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    North Queensland Australia. On the barrier reef.
    Posts
    1,253
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Right on- it's a part of the jigsaw. All the parts together give the whole picture. Too much emphasis on one part gives an imbalance.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

  9. #54
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    Whenever I discuss tameshigiri, I always bring up this point (probably because I'm getting older and repeat things)
    There is much discussion these days about the need for tameshigiri. Personally I think most men do not differentiate that idea of need into the more accurate descriptions of what that need is.
    1. Smiths want to test their tools.
    2. Men want to test themselves.

    To which I would respond
    1. Smiths should only be worried about testing within the design parameters of the in-service (war) use of the tool. We should not be about the business of making an overly obtuse (heavy niku) edge angle to hit metal and have edge durability, or overly thin, flat angle, grass cutters. Nor should we be making tip-heavy self-cutting, zippers. By doing so we have responded to these artificial tests- to the point of now having created an artificial tool for sole purpose of contest winning, to make a point. None of these test-tuned tools express the overall attributes of a true sword. If we allow it go this way, they would be nothing more than a modern derivitive that has become artificially tuned for contest winning.


    2. Testing oneself with a sword can rapidly degenerate from the purposes of the ryu to which you belong. Are you standing there gettng ready, bracing yourself and cutting something? That is the equivalent of shadow boxing or some karate kid punching a makiwara. Cutting, or perhaps more importantly- stabbing, should be done in strict accord to the perogatives of your style of swordsmanshp. You, and all you presumably know, in motion; cutting. That is a much truer test of yourself.
    To strengthen this point, I will site an experience I hadd with three people who trained with me. One who had a sword in his hand most of his adult life, Two who had just started learning sword for a few years. I gave them one of my blades, off we went cutting trees. The two newer people did almost as well as the guy who had been training with a sword for years. My point?
    If your art is cogent and sound, and your teacher knows how to teach, you may be surprised to learn (as two of my people were)that you did not need to test cut, because all that you learned in the dojo prepared you to cut. There was simply no need to be taught any other specialty skill. But,Proper teaching, proper corrections, may not be a given in every art.
    Motion VS Static.
    Standing and test cutting is not the truth of the sword, it is the first baby-step of cutting. Cutting, or stabbing in motion is the real work. What good is cutting or stabbing if you cannot handle yourself against an opponent who can test your kill level. You can become an embarrasment to yourself, possible without every realizing it.
    I think everyone should be more concerned with learning to handle a sword in motion. learning to be safe with it in all environments, with people milling about, and then with their own body mechanics before they go using a live blade in the presence of others.


    And last
    Just how much effort are you thinking you need to cut in a battle? Cutting through by using strength is not the way. Conserving energy and doing the most damage with the least force is. And just what are you cutting -at- in this presumed battle?


    As for cutting, here is a quote from the Vegetius book of strategy admonishing warriors how to train. It addresses prior real-time experiencs with armies that used the edge of their weapons to slash. It advises"
    "......Not to cut, but to thrust with the sword...for they not only made a jest of those who fought with the edge of that weapon, they found them to be an easy conquest."

    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 7th February 2005 at 13:31.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    6,227
    Likes (received)
    118

    Default

    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    ...As for cutting, here is a quote from the Vegetius book of strategy admonishing warriors how to train. It addresses prior real-time experiencs with armies that used the edge of their weapons to slash. It advises"
    "......Not to cut, but to thrust with the sword...for they not only made a jest of those who fought with the edge of that weapon, they found them to be an easy conquest."
    Good advice...

    if you're facing opponents armed with a Roman gladius, and you are likewise armed.

    But between the time of Flavius Vegetius Renatus' De Re Militari (written in 390CE, but referring to an even earlier time) and Yagyu Munenori's Heiho Kadensho (written to 1632CE) a few things changed.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,654
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    You know, if some of you guys would just get into bogu and have a proper bash at one another with shinai, you wouldn't feel the need to validate yourselves through tameshigiri and the like.

    *ducks*

    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Surrey, England
    Posts
    802
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Hayaaaah!

    Charlie

    Trouble is you Kendo guys get all upset when we try to:
    a) cleave you down the centre to your navels or
    b) perform upper kesa giri

    "Why doesn't a smack round the ear count????"

    Andy Watson

    Minoru hodo
    Kobe o tareru
    Inaho ka na

    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    1,394
    Likes (received)
    84

    Default

    Charlie

    Good one!


    Chris Thomas

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Baton Rouge, La.
    Posts
    356
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Having trained with Esaka-sensei briefly in Japan and having dinner with him and several other iaidoka, including Diamandstien-sensei afterwards, I can tell you he is not the sort of person to take his words or his practice lightly.

    Every iaido sensei I have trained with from Japan has advocated strongly the idea of keeping an opponent in mind while practicing. And the training sessions inolve heavy emphasis on practice and the practical aspects of training with a sword, and very light on philosophy, even at Esaka's dojo.

    While I agree that the main purpose of a sword is to cut, that's no longer the main purpose of sword arts, no matter how many of you wish it were otherwise. Face it, none of you are ever going to be required to go to war with a sword. Ever. Those days are over. So the emphasis Esaka sensei puts on spiritual development is closer to the reality of sword training than those thinking they may one day have to use it. Again, every swordsman I've trained with advocates training with real intent, but has no illusions about WWII-era human tameshigiri, much less having to fight in "Sekigahara II: Wrath of Hideyoshi" anytime ever.

    No better illustration of this is found in one of our iai students SSGT Robert Burns, a Bradley TC in the 256th. Before he left for Iraq, he spend one of his last days in country training at the dojo, and currently practices in idle hours while over there. When it comes time to fight, he puts his sword away, gets his sidearm and his armoured vehicle and does his thing. He made a crack recently about some of the Joes there with knock off Tawanese katana and ninjato strapped to their backs when they first get over there, only to discard them later when they realize how much of a pain-in-the-!!! it is to carry them around and never use them.

    Oh, and as to watching Esaka sensei on video, you should watch the video of him at 78 years old doing nukiuchi (from the MJER curriculum) with his knees slamming into the hard wood floor of a gym. I doubt many budoka, Japanese or otherwise, are or will be capable of the same at that age.
    --Neil Melancon--

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    894
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    You know, if some of you guys would just get into bogu and have a proper bash at one another with shinai, you wouldn't feel the need to validate yourselves through tameshigiri and the like.

    *ducks*

    Bogu? We don't need no steenkin' bogu...



    Handbags at 15 paces! Hajime!
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •