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Thread: thoughts on tameshigiri

  1. #61
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    Hey, back off, you guys, I just had my hair done.

    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  2. #62
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    Originally posted by Aozora
    Having trained with Esaka-sensei briefly in Japan and having dinner with him and several other iaidoka, including Diamandstien-sensei afterwards, I can tell you he is not the sort of person to take his words or his practice lightly.
    I never said he did; my point was: does he actually mean what he said? What was the real meaning he was trying to convey?

    Originally posted by Aozora
    Every iaido sensei I have trained with from Japan has advocated strongly the idea of keeping an opponent in mind while practicing. And the training sessions inolve heavy emphasis on practice and the practical aspects of training with a sword, and very light on philosophy, even at Esaka's dojo.
    This sounds typical. While discussion of the proper attitude and approach to traning was often discussed, I very rarely heard anybody spend much time discussing the "philosophy" of budo, at least in the way that Westerners like to discuss it, e.g, "What does it all MEAN, Sensei?"

    Originally posted by Aozora
    While I agree that the main purpose of a sword is to cut, that's no longer the main purpose of sword arts, no matter how many of you wish it were otherwise. Face it, none of you are ever going to be required to go to war with a sword. Ever. Those days are over.
    Yes, that is quite true, and I do not know anyone who thinks that he is ever going to be in a pitched battle with swords. However, I do not see how this invalidates the value of training with a sword as though it was still a deadly weapon. In any case, if you take Esaka Sensei's words literally, he is stating very plainly that the purpose of the sword is NOT to cut. If he simply means "in this day and age", then that is someting different.

    Originally posted by Aozora
    So the emphasis Esaka sensei puts on spiritual development is closer to the reality of sword training than those thinking they may one day have to use it.
    I don't understand what this means. Could you please explain it? Or is this simply another way of saying that iai training is not practical, it is just spiritual? If this is so, how does "training with real intent" fit into this? It would seem to be a contradicition in terms. In any case, I don't believe that the fact that the sword is obsolete as a weapon means that therefore training with a sword should not reflect the actual mode of use of the weapon. In studying this diligently, I tink that one can learn something of value, even if one will never use a sword.

    Originally posted by Aozora
    Again, every swordsman I've trained with advocates training with real intent
    Everyone says this, and I am sure that everyone is sincere, so please don't think that I am casting aspersions on anyone's sincerity. I hate to sound like an overly logical nit-picking Westerner, but how does training with real intent mesh with Esaka Sensei's stated belief that the sword is not for cutting?

    Originally posted by Aozora
    No better illustration of this is found in one of our iai students SSGT Robert Burns, a Bradley TC in the 256th....When it comes time to fight, he puts his sword away, gets his sidearm and his armoured vehicle and does his thing.
    Well, I should certainly hope so. Carrying a katana to battle in Iraq is just, well, stupid.

    I don't believe I have any illusions about "WWII-era human tameshigiri" or having to fight in a "Sekigahara II: Wrath of Hideyoshi"-type of situation. That is not what I'm talking about at all. My only question is: if one believes that the sword has nothing to do with cutting and that even thinking that it does is a desecration of the soul of the sword, how does one train with the intent of cutting an attacking enemy?

    If one says "You should train like this so that should you be forced to do so, you can defnd yourself against an enemy, but at the same time you should hope that such a situation never comes to pass and you should do everything you can to prevent it, since killing other people should be avoided at all costs", then I understand and concur.

    Originally posted by Aozora
    Oh, and as to watching Esaka sensei on video, you should watch the video of him at 78 years old doing nukiuchi (from the MJER curriculum) with his knees slamming into the hard wood floor of a gym. I doubt many budoka, Japanese or otherwise, are or will be capable of the same at that age.
    As I said earlier, I am not casting aspersions on Esaka Sensei's skill in iai. His iai is obviously very very good. All I am trying to do is understand what he means by his statements, since it seems odd for an iai teacher to say so bluntly that a sword is not made to cut things.

    Also, re: the point vs. the edge: If a thrust to the body in kendo was a legal point, nobody would bother to try to cut anyone.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 7th February 2005 at 22:58.
    Earl Hartman

  3. #63
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    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    In any case, if you take Esaka Sensei's words literally, he is stating very plainly that the purpose of the sword is NOT to cut. If he simply means "in this day and age", then that is someting different.
    Hang on a second. How can you take the words literally when it is clearly a translation of the original message. Could this be an issue of the meaning being lost in translation? Could this admonition against using the sword to cut something, have been meant as an admonition against cutting objects? I don't see how this admonition against cutting objects prohibits training with the intent to cut your enemy.

    We've heard from at least a couple of folks now who have trained with Esaka-sensei and there are a few more who have trained with him on the similar thread on Swordforum. By all accounts of those who have trained with him, training with Esaka-sensei is very much focused on cutting down your enemy. So for future reference, I would appreciate it if we could stop discussing this as a theoretical. Either come out and say we're lying about how he teaches or accept it.

    For anyone who would like to enquire further as to the teaching methods of Esaka-sensei, I would suggest contacting those who have had the most contact with him off forum as two of them do not post here at all and the other one is not a frequent contributor. The obvious person to speak with is Diamantstein-sensei. There is an email address for him listed at his website http://www.iaido.org

    You can also contact Ted Davis of the Canadian Iaido Association who has probably trained with him more than most outside of Japan. He has trained with a wide variety of other instructors within various branches of MJER. You can probably find a contact for him at http://www.iaido.ca
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  4. #64
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    Let me get this straight: you're accusing me of accusing you of lying?

    Since when does "What you say about training with Esaka Sensei seems to contradict his given statement. Could you please explain this a little more?" mean "You're lying"?

    I would like to stay firmly on the correct side of the looking glass, if it's all the same to you.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 8th February 2005 at 00:11.
    Earl Hartman

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    Earl it wasn't meant exclusively for you. If I read something more into your continued pressing of this matter, then I apologize.
    Last edited by Charles Mahan; 8th February 2005 at 00:59.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  6. #66
    Tom D Guest

    Angry Guys guys guys

    Originally posted by Aozora
    Having trained with Esaka-sensei briefly in Japan and having dinner with him and several other iaidoka, including Diamandstien-sensei afterwards, I can tell you he is not the sort of person to take his words or his practice lightly.

    Every iaido sensei I have trained with from Japan has advocated strongly the idea of keeping an opponent in mind while practicing. And the training sessions inolve heavy emphasis on practice and the practical aspects of training with a sword, and very light on philosophy, even at Esaka's dojo.

    While I agree that the main purpose of a sword is to cut, that's no longer the main purpose of sword arts, no matter how many of you wish it were otherwise. Face it, none of you are ever going to be required to go to war with a sword. Ever. Those days are over. So the emphasis Esaka sensei puts on spiritual development is closer to the reality of sword training than those thinking they may one day have to use it. Again, every swordsman I've trained with advocates training with real intent, but has no illusions about WWII-era human tameshigiri, much less having to fight in "Sekigahara II: Wrath of Hideyoshi" anytime ever.

    No better illustration of this is found in one of our iai students SSGT Robert Burns, a Bradley TC in the 256th. Before he left for Iraq, he spend one of his last days in country training at the dojo, and currently practices in idle hours while over there. When it comes time to fight, he puts his sword away, gets his sidearm and his armoured vehicle and does his thing. He made a crack recently about some of the Joes there with knock off Tawanese katana and ninjato strapped to their backs when they first get over there, only to discard them later when they realize how much of a pain-in-the-!!! it is to carry them around and never use them.

    Oh, and as to watching Esaka sensei on video, you should watch the video of him at 78 years old doing nukiuchi (from the MJER curriculum) with his knees slamming into the hard wood floor of a gym. I doubt many budoka, Japanese or otherwise, are or will be capable of the same at that age.
    Mr Aozora brings up many excellent points. Also Mr Mahn brings up a REALLY fine point.
    First off I really need to express my opinion of this thread. I usually just mind my business, but being an Iai practitioner I need to say something for those who do not practice and read this thread. Although I have never met many people in the organization in question about cutting. I in no way would ever even begin to judge ANY respectable Sensei's words in his philosophy. I certainly hope not to offend the wrong people here but if a select few of you were my student, I would throw you out of my dojo for your misconduct.You guys have no idea what you are doing to your teachers right now. To even THINK to give critizism to any teacher of this caliber is unheard of in proper Budo. Iai is also about culture, BEHAVIOR and humility. I have yet to meet or even hear of anyone who qualifies to give ANY opinion good OR bad about this Teacher in Question and his philosophies. Whom I have never met-As many of you have never met! It just gives another example of just how stupid us Americans are. I thank you for that. As if I already don't have it tough. Forgive me guys, I'm just very angry right now. It's people like this that make me make rash decisions in life. Budo is challenging enough.
    Also Charles you and I have had some pleasant conversations in the past and i want to bring up again one of your points.
    Okay if I was teaching American Football in Japan and wanted to translate my opinions in Kanji on a Japanese website. Don't you think the actual translation would get a bit "lost"? I would be very aware that my points would never come across without people training with me for a long time. I mean come on, do you really think that ALL those years of Budo training and teaching can be summed up on a one page American website? Are you guys that stupid? Where the heck have you guys been? I thank you again for another fine example of us Westerners.
    I have been a practitioner of the JKI. And I would like to give my opinion of all the other Iai organizations with whom I do NOT train with......Just kidding, Now didn't that sound pretty silly of me?

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    Hello Mr. Duffy,
    Or should I say pot? Strangely enough, several of the people that are discussing this are very experienced practitioners themselves. So in essence, you have just bitched out several very experienced people and called them stupid Americans because they had the audacity to question another experienced practitioner. To quote yourself ... "you have no idea what you are doing to your teacher right now!"
    They are not affecting your life or your ability to practice budo.

    This is why I stated at the beginning of this thread that I did not have the requisite knowledge and experience to question Esaka sensei's views. I've been practicing for less than one decade. That doesn't mean that no one has the requisite experience. Unless you are one of those with several decades of experience in the Japanese sword arts, perhaps you should just sit quietly as I am doing and follow the conversation? I seriously doubt that Esaka sensei is bothering to read it. From what I know of those with that kind of experience, he would probably be amused that others were discussing his viewpoints.

    Of course, I could be wrong on all counts.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Default Re: Guys guys guys

    Originally posted by Tom D
    [B Although I have never met many people in the organization in question about cutting. I in no way would ever even begin to judge ANY respectable Sensei's words in his philosophy. I certainly hope not to offend the wrong people here but if a select few of you were my student, I would throw you out of my dojo for your misconduct.You guys have no idea what you are doing to your teachers right now. To even THINK to give critizism to any teacher of this caliber is unheard of in proper Budo. Iai is also about culture, BEHAVIOR and humility. I have yet to meet or even hear of anyone who qualifies to give ANY opinion good OR bad about this Teacher in Question and his philosophies. Whom I have never met-As many of you have never met! It just gives another example of just how stupid us Americans are. I thank you for that. As if I already don't have it tough. Forgive me guys, I'm just very angry right now. It's people like this that make me make rash decisions in life. Budo is challenging enough.[/B]
    Sorry to say you living in a dream world. Do you think for one minute Japanese dont criticise their teachers? Yes we know what its all about! But if you read some of the other parts of the thread and absorbed them you would now know that sadly behavior and humility is not something that always applies to Budo teachers even of the highest calibre.

    Please read the thread again slowly. I am NOT American and my references were made to Japanese. As I explained before I came to Japan with some of the ideas you have. Your ideas might hopefully work in an individual dojo but do not stretch to associations.

    By all means leave all this stuff behind when you step in to dojo. Dont even so much as look at the clock and do as you are told.

    Your thought are admirable but are not the reality of things. A Menkyo Kaiden I know already has an answer to what you say, "Please dont expect too much of us. We are only human beings"

    I suppose the main problem with the thread is as mentioned its perhaps a bad translation. Also one really needs to know how these thoughts were arrived at by the person in question.

    I can see his reasoning when it come to killing people with an object of religious value. But cutting nothing at all?. Beats me. The army does it!
    Hyakutake Colin

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    Does Mr. Esaka also practice Battoh? Seems that if he does, it would sort of put a new perspective on his comments.

    Rob

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    Default Hey!

    Don't leave me out of this. I'm not American but I AM stupid!

    Go figger?!?
    Andy Watson

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    Inaho ka na

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  11. #71
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hi Brian

    Sorry about not being able to connect in Washington. I got in at Midnight Friday, we had that ice storm on Sat. and the rest of the weekend was a fun filled, no room to do anything else extravaganza! I do want to hook up though and I am going out there almost every month this year so I'll contact you. Check your P.M.

    What happened to our thread?
    I fear this train is about to go skittering off the tracks. I wish we could split the thread.


    Anyway, back on the track, you were picking one, small, point out of a letter.....hmmmm.


    ************************************

    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    ...As for cutting, here is a quote from the Vegetius book of strategy admonishing warriors how to train. It addresses prior real-time experiences with armies that used the edge of their weapons to slash. It advises"
    "......Not to cut, but to thrust with the sword...for they not only made a jest of those who fought with the edge of that weapon, they found them to be an easy conquest."

    **************************************


    Good advice...

    if you're facing opponents armed with a Roman gladius, and you are likewise armed.

    But between the time of Flavius Vegetius Renatus' De Re Militari (written in 390CE, but referring to an even earlier time) and Yagyu Munenori's Heiho Kadensho (written to 1632CE) a few things changed.


    __________________
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---




    I think you are missing the point, though faced with the shield and sword....you wouldn't have!
    Facing any swordsman allowed to free-style it; the cut and thrust would be the overall favorite. Whether done with gladius, schiavona, firhengi, Kris, rapier, yatagan or shallow curve Katana- is no matter.
    Query. What is the shortest distance between two points?
    There is much to be said for low work and stabbing. Arching and shoulder line sword work has its place, but lower-hands, center-line work is superior. You may or may not be surprised when you learn that many sword people (by this I mean those both IN the Japanese arts and without) already know this to be true.

    It is much the same with the body arts. Where do you think controlling the center line came from in the first place? Weapons! In any paired encounter weapons or no, it is very hard for me intellectually to make big movements. My body struggles when being asked to do them as they are vulnerable. I want to stay low, control the center line and spring from a ball, with the hands at center line. That goes equally for punching, kicking, body throws and any other entering move. There is no difference in this theory and in weapons. Knife work (real knife work not the nonsense seen in many dojo) is very small, direct and in and out. Sword work is much the same. It should be no surprise that many adepts would recommend to you that you develop the best cut and then the best cut-and-thrust that you can from the center line, not from a raised position. This is a truth of the sword.
    As for era? BC or AD, Roman, Asian, Persian or otherwise. Men are men, soldiers are soldiers, and the advice offered in many of these books of strategy transcends time. It is the recognition of the core truths contained in them that’s has afforded them the embrace of modern military strategists. That one would find, substantive and timely advice about all things military, from foot care, troop rotation, pay scale and training in the same pages as advice for sword use should come as no surprise.

    Anyway
    Again, what is the shortest distance between two points? Men, their bodies, the distance they fight at and their use of bladed weapons has limitations and truths. Certain truths transcend time. We know from the Greeks, that all things being equal, in an encounter between a wrestler and a pugilist- bet on the wrestler. This has always been (statistically not anecdotally ) the case and still is. So it is with the low center line cut and thrust.

    A cut and stab in one motion, while controlling the center line is a very, solid attack frame. A [I]truth{/I] of the sword, if you will. One that transcends any opinion, era or culture.


    Hey guys,
    Can we assume the best of each other and just ask for clarification. Earl did. Try it. A-S-S-U-M-E the best, and then take the least offense. Most of you are very nice chaps. Argue and debate as if, with a friend. There is enough common ground to disagree as gentlemen. It raises the bar and maintains a level of discourse that will sustain this place and us all.
    It does not bode well for anyone to claim he is a military artist on the one hand, while losing his temper, or patience when dealing with something as pedestrian as correspondence.

    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 8th February 2005 at 13:51.

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    Dan

    With all respect "bet on the wrestler."

    Just watched one of the last UFC's and more folks won by KO/striking than they did by grappling.

    And those guys are trained fighters.

    Stats can say pretty much anything you wish them too. And I doubt that we have accurate stats on ancient greek wrestling vs punching.

    (hard time with the idea that there have been enough pure wrestling vs pure striking bouts over time to get a valid sample size--so I'm not sure that "statistcally" is the best way to put it.)

    Esp since the greeks broke the arts into "pure" grappling, "boxing" and and style that combined "both" grappling and striking.

    If its a comptative event--its the rules that really matter, since people wishing to compete must follow the rules. And those rules effect how they train.
    If there are no rules, bet on the guy that gets to a weapon first.

    Chris Thomas

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    I have seen this statement from Esaka Sensei posted on several boards now and seem to see the same pattern and reaction to what is being said!
    I do not know Esaka Sensei, but have seen video of him and his kata/waza! The man’s waza is exceptional for someone his age.
    I have seen John Ray Sensei’s waza in person and it is some of the best Iai that I have ever seen either in Japan or America. Ray Sensei is one of Esaka Sensei’s direct students I believe.

    It is very clear as to the achievements and philosophies that Esaka Sensei has spent his more than 70 yrs in budo striving for and it is apparent they are firm and non contradicting in his eyes! It is also apparent that there are many followers of MJER and other ryuha that believe solely in this type of philosophy and belief and that to cut something or to use the sword in any realistic manner which may advocate the cutting of something or someone is sacrilegious in modern times. There is nothing wrong with this kind of thinking! It is their opinion.

    What everyone needs to realize is that this is the statement of one man and should not be used to generalize Iai as a whole or any other form of Kenjutsu for that matter! There are plenty of other very high ranking sensei from various ryuha including MJER that have a different view. They believe that tameshigiri either on tatami omote or wada is a vital part in the application of the waza that is being passed down regardless of time.
    Does this mean that I should look at Esaka Sensei or Ray Sensei and think that their Iai is weak because they don’t cut? Nope! I should look at it for what it is. Good Iai!
    This is one highly respected sensei’s opinion and nothing more! It’s all good and leading to the same place, but on a different path and he has earned the right to have this kind of philosophy. The statement should really apply to the people that are directly affiliated with him and the ZNIR.

    What really gripes my !!! about this and many other threads like is the fact that there are those people both in Japan and the rest of the world that think only the Japanese have the right answers to all the questions and that if someone like Esaka Sensei says you shouldn’t cut then they better preach it to the rest of the community as gospel and anybody that doesn’t think that way is wrong or a “Stupid American”.

    Let me tell you something bud! There are plenty of Japanese practitioners in Japan as well as highly ranked sensei that don’t have a clue as to what they are saying, doing or trying to perceive! The same problems that exist in the Budo world in America exist in Japan as well. The buying of rank, creation of some weird BS style and the bashing of one another runs rampant in Japan both in Koryu and Gendai arts. Many people in the west don’t see this side of the “SAMURAI” ideals of today because they have never been to Japan for any length of time let alone trained there.

    I remember two great conversations within the last three years that come to mind! One was with the late Nakamura Taizaburo Sensei while in the hospital. He said that he preferred to teach foreigners rather than Japanese. I said why and he said “Because they are more serious about it than most in Japan. The Americans ask the questions that nobody else would dare.” He said this to me with a big smile while holding my 1086 Howard Clark American made blade that was the envy of two Japanese smiths I visited during that trip!
    The other was with Niina Gyokusui Toyoaki Gosoke of Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo! I was asked what I thought the future of budo was. I said in a very serious manner” You’re looking at it” meaning that the future is in us. The foreigners! He shook his head agreeing, smiled and said “Yes, I agree”.

    I have the ultimate respect for Esaka Sensei for dedicating his life to Budo as well as Ray Sensei. I don’t agree with the above statement in regards to cutting and would question it’s reasoning with anyone including my own teachers! I would question the reasoning behind the man and his statements which is what Earl, Dan and others are doing, not the technique within the ryuha. That’s the difference!

    Then again, what do I know! I’m just some dumb American that cuts stuff and has been doing MA’s for 29yrs. Half of those with a sword!


    Respect
    BIG TONY

    Senpokan Dojo
    Tozai Imports

  14. #74
    Tom D Guest

    Default Thank you

    Thank you Mr. Alvarez for that response. You made a lot of sense to my problems. I humbly thank you.
    And again I am sorry if anyone got offended. I'm just speaking in general terms and pointed no one out in particular.
    I will be quiet now. just venting, just whining, just being a milly. I'll admit it.
    Thanks again, Tom

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    Tony,

    Thank you for your kind words. Ray-sensei is not Esaka-sensei's direct student. He trained at the Yamashita-dojo in Chiba under, and this should come as no suprise , Yamashita-sensei. We now train under one of Yamashita-sensei's senior students, Tanida Hiroshi-sensei. That said, Ray-sensei has definitely had the oppurtunity to train with Esaka-sensei on numerous occasions, and we are under Esaka-sensei's region within the structure of the ZNIR.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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