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Thread: thoughts on tameshigiri

  1. #76
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    I noticed something in Tony's post that I missed the first time. I'd just like to reiterate that, as has been posted on this thread and in the other threads about this topic by people who have trained with Esaka-sensei, that he is all about cutting down your opponent. The student should very definitely be cutting down his enemy in every waza. It is the focus of iai. That's the way he teaches.

    Just making sure that's clear.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  2. #77
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    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    Hi Brian

    Sorry about not being able to connect in Washington. I got in at Midnight Friday, we had that ice storm on Sat. and the rest of the weekend was a fun filled, no room to do anything else extravaganza! I do want to hook up though and I am going out there almost every month this year so I'll contact you.
    I understand. We had it a little worse in Everett than in Seattle, and I stayed "cocooned" at home for that whole weekend.

    If you're up here during the summer, that would be the best time to hook up. Hope to hear from you then.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by jezah81 View Post
    On reading about tameshi giri on the net, i came across a website which had this to say about using a nihonto for cutting:
    www.iaido.org
    What do you guys think of this?
    Kind Regards,



    Tameshigiri is the action of using a sword to cut objects (tamesu in Japanese means "try out", while giri means "cut").

    Iaido is the only martial art where one practices with a sword in order to "polish" onešs spirit/heart (kokoro). Tameshigiri is forbidden by the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei, the only specialist iaido organization in Japan.

    There are several reasons for not doing tameshigiri.

    Firstly, one has to consider that the Japanese sword is not a tool, irrespective of whether the blade is live or not. In Japan, the Japanese sword has held a very important, and sometimes mystical, position in society. It is still one of the 3 treasures of the Imperial family, along with the mirror and orb. Thus, a sword is thought to have sacred properties.

    Taking this into consideration, the act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree.

    Furthermore, swordsmiths put their heart and soul into making Japanese swords great works of art. Therefore, using a sword to cut something is a most disrespectful act towards the swordsmith and the sword, which samurai thought of as their soul. (In fact, etiquette towards the sword requires one to treat it with the greatest respect at all times; for example, one shouldnšt step over it, or touch the blade with onešs hands.)


    --- Esaka Sensei

    Hello to jezah81 and Esaka Sensei who it would appear wrote the text.

    I have a problem with the body of the text quoted.
    The sole purpose of the sword was to cut or hack opponents and hopefully to do so in style.
    Doing so at one of the many organized Japanese contests shows absolutely no disrespect to the sword,the swordsmiths,or the culture and history sourounding Japanese swords.
    Secondly the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei has very little to do with real sword use and is only used to introduce Kendoka to actual blades(even if they are mostly Iaito instead of Shinken).
    Please explain why most Koryu have techniques where a hand is laid directly on the blade to perform the technique and how this could possibly be "disrespecting" in any fashion.

    The Japanese Sword in whatever era was nothing more than a very specialized "tool" that was mostly well made and gained a special place in Japanese culture.

    Just a special note here-I am not bashing ZNIR-I have shodan in Seiteigata and Kendo from years ago.


    Regards John Williams

  4. #79
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    Ladies and gents
    In shin shin sekiguchi ryu iaijutsu we only cut from kata. This mostly to check our kata and sword control. We do this at every enbu and we will be at the west coast Tai kai. Of course we are a koryu, so we follow soke's rules. But we respect everyone 's art and their "way". Got Alvarez Sensei to try a thirteen goza roll cut, very impressive. Plus a great mix of guys and ladies, who we consider life long friends.
    Carl McClafferty
    kokusai Renmeicho
    Shin Shin sekiguchi ryu j
    Carl McClafferty

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by tameshigiriguy View Post
    Secondly the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei has very little to do with real sword use and is only used to introduce Kendoka to actual blades(even if they are mostly Iaito instead of Shinken).
    Just a small note: you're probably thinking of Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei iai. ZNIR is an iai-only organization with members from various koryu. They do have a common set of five kata, called toho, but it's nowhere near the ZNKR seiteigata in importance.
    A. Junnila - No longer the whole iai-faction of Turku universities' kendo club

  6. #81
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    Default West Coast Taikai

    Mr. McClafferty, glad to hear you'll be in country this time! Dan always gets nervous when he has to come by himself, and since he can't hold his liquor to begin with, he makes a terrible mess!

    It will be good to see you!
    Regards,

    Dave Neeley

    Senpokan dojo

  7. #82
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    Beer OPPS my mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by r2- View Post
    Just a small note: you're probably thinking of Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei iai. ZNIR is an iai-only organization with members from various koryu. They do have a common set of five kata, called toho, but it's nowhere near the ZNKR seiteigata in importance.
    Hey-thanks for that.
    I've been out of things for quite a while(due to "POLITICS").

    I thought the ZNIRI was a branch of ZNKR-my mistake.

    There were only 10 kata when I was learning but now I see there are 3 more posted on youtube.


    Cheers John Williams

  8. #83
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    Beer

    Quote Originally Posted by hyaku View Post

    Its hard enough as it is to appreciate the reality of what would happen if we really used a sword. That really is part of the learning process that teaches us as Musashi said, Learn your weapons well "in case" you are attacked.

    To me tameshigiri tests not only the mind and the weapon but gives us an indication of the horror we can inflict.

    I couldn't agree with you more.

    While I enjoy cutting things up I CAN imagine what it would do to another human being and have no desire to ever use it for that purpose.


    John Williams

  9. #84
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    I first started sword work doing ZNKR iaido. I have seen Iaido nanadan doing tameshigiri, bend swords and make a mess because of objectivity. The constant tendancy to finish iai cuts at the waist. lack of koshi within the waza are different.

    My Japanese Iai club use to go into the mountains once a year to cut bamboo.

    I joined batto remei and to reach a yudansha level had to start 'all over again'. It really is ''wheels of a cart' with individual parts of sword work becoming faceted and specialized over the years. As also being a member of Zen-I-Ren I have also seen heads of that renmei do tameshigiri.

    I think is has to be understood that WW2 produced a stigma in sword studies and that we can do tameshigiri under the right circumstance at the right time if it is found acceptable. Sword renmei are associated and often do demonstrations at shinto shrines where tameshigiri is often done.

    Sword work in koryu tends to work on an defensive system, that the attack pre-empts a commited attack to you. We can also usually assume that a cut finishing in gedan has cut down an opponent after he has attacked.

    As a response is that bad?

    It really is hard using a weapon to do 'full cuts' without a target as it does slow down the cuts down entering an object and saves ripping your arm out of the socket using a heavy weapon on a daily basis. Swords made for cutting 'are heavy'.

    We all practice the sword but don't carry them any more and dont pose a threat to anyone. In South East Asia elementary school kids carry them to school but use blades for gardening. Its unthinkable that I would go out without one with pythons up coconut trees and cobras hiding around!

    For me I have to cut through 5 inch bamboo for never consider it to be a human being. Its 'a tool/weapon' for various uses and I always try to use the waza I have been taught with every cut!

    Spending time in a country with a 60 year time slip has taught me a better understanding of the use a feeling of what a blade is for.
    Last edited by hyaku; 17th July 2012 at 05:39.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  10. #85
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    Tameshigiri is the action of using a sword to cut objects (tamesu in Japanese means "try out", while giri means "cut").

    Iaido is the only martial art where one practices with a sword in order to "polish" onešs spirit/heart (kokoro). Tameshigiri is forbidden by the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei, the only specialist iaido organization in Japan.

    There are several reasons for not doing tameshigiri.

    Firstly, one has to consider that the Japanese sword is not a tool, irrespective of whether the blade is live or not. In Japan, the Japanese sword has held a very important, and sometimes mystical, position in society. It is still one of the 3 treasures of the Imperial family, along with the mirror and orb. Thus, a sword is thought to have sacred properties.

    Taking this into consideration, the act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree.

    Furthermore, swordsmiths put their heart and soul into making Japanese swords great works of art. Therefore, using a sword to cut something is a most disrespectful act towards the swordsmith and the sword, which samurai thought of as their soul. (In fact, etiquette towards the sword requires one to treat it with the greatest respect at all times; for example, one shouldnšt step over it, or touch the blade with onešs hands.)


    --- Esaka Sensei
    There are a couple of things I find interesting here.

    First, the statement that tameshigiri is forbidden by the ZNIR.

    Second, the statement that iaido is the only martial art where one works with the sword to polish one's spirit.

    Third, the concept that a sword is a work of art and that to use it for cutting would be an insult to the smith!

    I am not sure who Esaka Sensei is, but there is something I've become familiar with over the years which is the way high-level Japanese teachers' hyperbole approaches infinity the closer they speak to the very core of their art.

    It's just interesting...I wonder how much is translation. Presumably they are using very direct, explicit language, which is something they can only do because they are shihan, and therefore they pull out all the stops and make everything sound as universal and definate as possible. And if I were a native Japanese speaker it would just sound really inspirational, but since it is translated into english and I am not an insider in their culture, it sounds arrogant?

    I think I Get It about the sword being a living embodiment of the warrior spirit or whatever, and never ever "just a tool" even though its actually a pretty good tool for cutting people. There is a huge imagery component to iaido and to keep the intensity and severity high, you need to put your head in that space. I get it, it just sounds kind of strange to people who don't train iaido.

    I have to say though...I just had my first tameshigiri experience with Jim Alvarez and David Goldberg in DC the other week. It was a very non-traditional kind of affair. I ended up purchasing a sword from Dave Goldberg and the thing is a very heavy, strong, brutal, severe blade with extremely basic fittings. If this thing has a spirit, it is the kind of spirit that would not have nice words to say to you about the way your father raised you if you tried to tell it that it shouldn't be used to cut things.

  11. #86
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    Default Life giving/taking?

    Hello Mr Hartman,

    I think that the descriptions,as old and romanticized as they are,on the 2 types of sword are a bit of a fallacy.

    Swords are used for killing,you can't give life by killing it.
    I do agree that the "sword" was used as a symbol of "justice" and "right" in many cultures and that by "killing" an oppressor you may be allowing others to live but you are still killing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Hartman View Post
    Oh, nicojo, I think you may have gotten "katsujinken" (the sword of the living person", sometmes calld "the sword which gives life") and "satsuninto" (satsujinken) ("the dead sword", sometimes called "the sword which takes life") mixed up. I can't imagine anyone being horrified by the "life-giving sword".

    Pardon me if I have misunderstood you.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by tameshigiriguy View Post
    Hello Mr Hartman,

    I think that the descriptions,as old and romanticized as they are,on the 2 types of sword are a bit of a fallacy.

    Swords are used for killing,you can't give life by killing it.
    I do agree that the "sword" was used as a symbol of "justice" and "right" in many cultures and that by "killing" an oppressor you may be allowing others to live but you are still killing.
    The terms katsujinken and satsujinken do not refer to "killing" as you so eloquently put it. As with most Japanese phrases, you cannot give a simple translation and expect to understand the concept. Japanese does not work that way. I don't think Earl is still around here as he wrote those words seven years ago.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by tameshigiriguy View Post
    ...you can't give life by killing it. ...by "killing" an oppressor you may be allowing others to live but you are still killing.
    Yes, but you are also giving [protecting] life. The two are not and never have been mutually exclusive.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    Yes, but you are also giving [protecting] life. The two are not and never have been mutually exclusive.

    Definitely something to look into.
    Maybe the translation into English has lost some of its intention.

    I think that the word "protecting" would have been a better way to put it.



    John Williams

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    The terms katsujinken and satsujinken do not refer to "killing" as you so eloquently put it. As with most Japanese phrases, you cannot give a simple translation and expect to understand the concept. Japanese does not work that way. I don't think Earl is still around here as he wrote those words seven years ago.
    I think you may have mistaken what I meant.

    what I meant is
    Swords are used primarily to kill,regardless of the culture or blade style.
    (this is not so much now we have far more "efficient" and less personal ways of achieving this end but the WEAPON was designed to kill)

    To have a phrase like katsujinken and satsujinken is a romanticism usually spread by the rulers of a society to explain why they armed themselves and why the "others" should not have arms.

    They just happened to use the word "sword" in the phrase.

    I believe the modern terminology used to describe the problem raised here would by "oxymoron"

    John Williams

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