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Thread: thoughts on tameshigiri

  1. #91
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    I believe the modern terminology used to describe the problem raised here would by "oxymoron"
    No, I believe the modern terminology would be "you don't understand the language, the phrase, or the society that the phrase came from." You are looking at a rough English translation (which is only valid in certain context) and are making assumptions from there. As I said in my last post, you are trying to make a Japanese phrase fit within a very narrow English definition, and that just doesn't work very well.

    To have a phrase like katsujinken and satsujinken is a romanticism usually spread by the rulers of a society to explain why they armed themselves and why the "others" should not have arms.
    In the context of the Japanese sword arts (that is what this forum is about), those phrases were meant to remind the student who is learning how to efficiently kill someone with a sword, that avoiding getting into a situation where you are forced to kill someone is much preferable. Learning how to kill needs to be accompanied by learning when to kill. Having one without the other is said to be wielding satsujinken.

    Join a traditional dojo and begin learning a Japanese sword art from a legitimate instructor with firm ties to Japan. Things such as this will become much clearer after a while.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by tameshigiriguy View Post
    ...Maybe the translation [of satsujinken/katsujinken] into English has lost some of its intention.

    I think that the word "protecting" would have been a better way to put it.
    I agree that practicing a koryu under a legitimate teacher -- or at least an authorized study group -- is the best course of action, but unless you live in Japan, Seattle, Philadelphia, Tampa, and a few other places you may not find anything that qualifies as authentic, authorized, legitimate, etc. outside of various iaido organizations.

    If you want to delve further into the concept of satsujinken/katsujinken from an academic standpoint, I recommend William Scott Wilson's translation of The Lifegiving Sword by Yagyu Munenori.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  3. #93
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    Maybe you are in a position where you have to engage in a duel, which is probably illegal, with some fool. Could be that you decide to cut his wrist open, so that in the remaining minute of sufficient blood pressure to his brain to allow for conscious thought, he can choose to stand down and have his second apply some pressure to the wound. You might be in a better position to explain your actions to your superior if you let the guy live.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post
    There are a couple of things I find interesting here.

    First, the statement that tameshigiri is forbidden by the ZNIR.

    ...

    I am not sure who Esaka Sensei is, but there is something I've become familiar with over the years which is the way high-level Japanese teachers' hyperbole approaches infinity the closer they speak to the very core of their art.
    .....
    It's just interesting...I wonder how much is translation....
    Just a couple of minor additions here. First, Esaka is no longer a member of the ZNIR, having left early last year, I believe it was, and has formed his own organization. If memory serves me correctly prior to that he had been a long time member, head of the Kanto division as well as one of the top officials of the group nationally.

    From what I have heard of him over the years, this sound like his views and not a translation problem.

    Regarding tameshigiri be forbidden in the ZNIR, I am not sure how accurate this is for a couple of reasons. On one hand, Esaka was a senior member of the MJER line in the ZNIR and while I can't confirm it, it is entirely possible (maybe even likely from the relationships I have had with other people in similar positions) that MJER forbids the practice and as the head of their line of MJER is also the head of the ZNIR, it is entirely possible that tameshigiri is forbidden at public ZNIR demonstrations and events (I have never seen it done at any of the events I have ever attended). With that said, I am friends with a ZNIR 8-dan hanshi who is a member of a different ryu, and he does do tameshigiri on occasion and has even done it at ryuha specific embu (i.e. non-ZNIR events) in the past. So while it may be true that the practice is forbidden at renmei specific events, it might be a bit much to read into that and assume that no one within the ZNIR does or approves of tameshigiri.

    For what it is worth,
    Rennis Buchner
    Rennis Buchner

  5. #95
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    Maybe they stopped it because of this kind of nonsense

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNtDZ0sStEU
    Gusta Paulo Novak

  6. #96
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    On one hand, Esaka was a senior member of the MJER line in the ZNIR and while I can't confirm it, it is entirely possible (maybe even likely from the relationships I have had with other people in similar positions) that MJER forbids the practice and as the head of their line of MJER is also the head of the ZNIR, it is entirely possible that tameshigiri is forbidden at public ZNIR demonstrations and events (I have never seen it done at any of the events I have ever attended).
    Yep! I still remember vividly finding this out when I invited John Ray sensei (MJER Hachidan) to bring his students out to a tameshigiri seminar I was hosting a number of years back. He politely declined.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  7. #97
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    We have to put things in a proper perspective and bear in mind the stigma attached to Japanese using a sword and why they push certain aspects of it.

    As Smith Sensei mentions many decline. It reminds me of a comment a well known Western Sensei said to me, "What do I tell my Western students, that our Japanese teacher used to cut of head during WW2"?

    Tameshigiri has its place and as I tried to explain in my last post, many Japanese Iai people "cant cut". That's why I took it up.

    Romantic or not we don't carry swords anymore. Its all practice!

    I think anyone who has the idea of putting his practice to practical use would be the dreamer or worst looking at the horrific developments with guns.

    When we do competition it's all based on perfection of degree of the cut and technique.

    Kendo is also based nowadays on what constitutes a 'good point'.
    Last edited by hyaku; 25th July 2012 at 04:48.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  8. #98
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by jezah81 View Post
    On reading about tameshi giri on the net, i came across a website which had this to say about using a nihonto for cutting:
    www.iaido.org
    What do you guys think of this?
    Kind Regards,



    Tameshigiri is the action of using a sword to cut objects (tamesu in Japanese means "try out", while giri means "cut").

    Iaido is the only martial art where one practices with a sword in order to "polish" onešs spirit/heart (kokoro). Tameshigiri is forbidden by the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei, the only specialist iaido organization in Japan.

    There are several reasons for not doing tameshigiri.

    Firstly, one has to consider that the Japanese sword is not a tool, irrespective of whether the blade is live or not. In Japan, the Japanese sword has held a very important, and sometimes mystical, position in society. It is still one of the 3 treasures of the Imperial family, along with the mirror and orb. Thus, a sword is thought to have sacred properties.

    Taking this into consideration, the act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree.

    Furthermore, swordsmiths put their heart and soul into making Japanese swords great works of art. Therefore, using a sword to cut something is a most disrespectful act towards the swordsmith and the sword, which samurai thought of as their soul. (In fact, etiquette towards the sword requires one to treat it with the greatest respect at all times; for example, one shouldnšt step over it, or touch the blade with onešs hands.)


    --- Esaka Sensei
    I have no intention of practicing Iaido.

    I do wish to practice battōjutsu and allow the steel sword to "polish" my mind and "kokoro", as a form of "kinhin" (meditative movements) to supplement my zazen (shikantaza) practice and bujutsu training.

    A sword that could not be made to cut may not have functional beauty. A sword or a wielder that can not cut hones illusions and delusions.

    I fully agree with respect of the tool at all times and adherance to its proper ceremony in context.

    In contrary, using a sword to cut something appropriate is respectful act towards the swordsmith and the sword, ultimately when readied and prepared to do so.

    Kind regards,

    Chris Evans, not-a-sensei.
    Last edited by havamal; 28th September 2012 at 00:48.
    Chris Evans
    Berkeley, CA, USA

  9. #99
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    Smile rank in inself means nothing

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Wylie View Post
    ... and 6dan kyoshi kendo.
    rank and years means nothing, if you can not help guide others to kindness of heart and perceptions of truths.

    enjoy your life, but do not be fooled by things.


    Chris
    Chris Evans
    Berkeley, CA, USA

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