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Thread: Mas Oyama for real?

  1. #16
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob van Tuyn
    If you want some reading material that will show you Oyama as a person and not as a god read some work of Jon Bluming, .
    Bluming's book is an interesting read but not a reliable source.

  2. #17
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustillo, A.
    Bluming's book is an interesting read but not a reliable source.
    What would you recommend as a more reliable source?

  3. #18
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    Bluming has a few things to say about Mas Oyama here, but I have read other interviews where Bluming praises him to no end so take it for what you will.

    http://www.realfighting.com/0102/jonblumi.htm
    Mark Chow-Young

  4. #19
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    What would you recommend as a more reliable source?
    To go by one source only, none. It's better to cross-reference the stories on Mas Oyama to get a picture of the man. For example Tadashi Nakamura's biography with Ashihara's and so on.

  5. #20
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Here is another reference to Oyama and his Yakuza connections as well as Oyama’s claim to winning the first Karate tournament after WWII…….makes ya go hmmmm


    Q
    While I was training at Gogen’s, I went to visit Oyama’s place, I was downstairs and he walked in (with about five or six Yakuza) and asked me where I trained. When I told him Gogen’s, one of his guys laughed and said the ballerina school, but wasn’t Gogen his teacher?

    Bluming
    Well that’s where he learned his karate…and nowhere else! And I don’t know if you read one of his old books, (it was written by one stupid American who didn’t know his !!! from a hole in the ground). He claims that Oyama captured the national title of Japan “knockout karate” in Kyoto in 1947. That’s !!!!in’ impossible. That’s impossible because the Shogun of Japan at that time was MacArthur, and he forbid any martial art that had to do with fighting, he finally said Judo was OK (’46 or ’47 I think), because that was a sport, a game, and not really violent.We trained in the old Kodokan with Suidobashi, where I trained with weights in the ‘60s. So that’s the first big lie I came across.

    This is also an interesting comment by Bluming:

    The second one was that he said he was going to the mountain for special training for no longer than three weeks or six weeks, but no longer than that… He told me! When I left three years later, he told other people he was on the mountain for three years? How the !!!! did he do any karate? Then he claims he did Judo, saying he was a Kodokan third dan. “They say,” he never personally says anything like that; he always let other people say things about him. And he just nods and looks at them with a yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it’s a lie. He never did ANY Judo at the Kodokan, he did some boxing, when he was a kid, and the pictures are in my book. But no karate, and no judo as a kid. And when he claimed he was doing karate in ’46 or ’47, that’s a big lie also, he just got out of the army.


    ....................
    All the fight organizations in Japan are run by gangsters, the top Yakuza, everybody knows that.

    Q
    Yeah, Mas Oyama surrounded himself with gangsters.

    Bluming
    Yes, but Kurosaki too, Kurosaki used to be his consigliere.

    Q
    Is Kurosaki the guy who hated Gaijins (white people) and beat them up all the time?

    Bluming
    I don’t know? I never fought with him, he never wanted to, because he saw me beat up one of the champions, and I didn’t know any karate, and I was just starting, I was there for 10 days or something like that, but I was a fanatic in this place and I was already a fourth dan in Judo. And as soon as I had this guy in the corner he didn’t know what to do, he wanted to punch me but I just gripped his gi and picked him up, he was hanging above my head and Oyama screamed STOP, so I put him down again, so from that day on, everyone was walking big circles around me.
    Last edited by Troll Basher; 18th July 2005 at 14:56.

  6. #21
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustillo, A.
    To go by one source only, none. It's better to cross-reference the stories on Mas Oyama to get a picture of the man. For example Tadashi Nakamura's biography with Ashihara's and so on.
    I guess that all depends on who you are using for a cross reference.

    Which part(s) of Bluming's information is incorrect?


    Q
    Did you meet Tadashi Nakamura?

    Bluming
    Yes, of course, he was a kid. And all the talk where he is a big champion is a lie; he never !!!!ing entered any kind of championship.

    Q
    Didn’t he beat some top Muay Thai champion?

    Bluming
    No, no, no, no, no, he did beat someone there, but not a top Thai boxer. But the one who really beat a lightweight Thai boxer was Fujihira. But he threw him with ippon seinage a few times, and that banged the guy up so he could knock him out.

    Q
    What about the story, that Oyama sent someone to New York to kill Nakamura, is that true?

    Bluming
    Yes, that’s true; they shot him in the knees.

    Nakamura was a good dojo fighter, absolutely, he was a terrific teacher, absolutely, but in the old system, the old fashioned system, he couldn’t do anything today with the caged fights, the K-1 fights, the free fights, they would kill him, even if he was 20 years of age, in that old style, but that’s the old fashioned way. One thing I didn’t like is that he gave himself a 10th dan when he was about 40, in Japan you have to be at least 61 to receive this belt.

    What I admired about Nakamura is that he saw the dirty things that were being done with the so-called world championships, and he wouldn’t go along with it. He was a referee when, I think it was Williams, from the States, the big Black fellow, and a hell of a good fighter, he gave him the decision and the Japanese were screaming to reverse the decision, and he didn’t want to do that, and then he wrote a letter saying, sorry, my heart is with Kyokushinkai, I really love you, but I cannot abide with you anymore, because of all the dirty business. This (organization) has nothing to do with the true spirit of and tradition of karate, and sorry, I can’t do it anymore. That was already when he was sent to New York to teach there. And opened the first dojo under Japanese supervision of the Hombu. I was in New York with my wife in June 1971, Nakamura and Shigeru Oyama invited me to a Japanese dinner and that’s the last time I ever saw them.

    Q
    Do you remember Shigeru Oyama?

    Bluming
    Oh yes, he’s an asshole. He tried to run his so-called Oyama worldwide organization but always asked for more money so everyone quit on him.


    Here is another interesting comment by Bluming:

    Q
    So you were the unpublicized pioneers of mixed martial arts? I thought it all started in America?

    Bluming
    No, In America they have about a million organizations, and one is worse than the other. And once you say, let’s get together and do a little work in the dojo, they piss in their pants; they don’t want to do that. As a matter of fact I just had some fall-out with some members in my organization. A guy called Antonio Bustillo, from Miami, Aguilar Fernando from Miami, and Carlos Feliz, who is from Puerto Rico but lives in Florida. They asked to be members, so I said OK, and they paid their lifetime membership fee, only $15, I mean I’m not in it for the money, I’m in it for the fun, but I need to run the organization and I need some money to do that. So they also asked for a grade, and they sent me certificates that they had grades by other organizations, so I found that I had to start somewhere, so I made Bustillo (a former police officer) a fourth dan, and Carlos also a fourth dan.

    Now it turns out that Carlos hadn’t done anything for years and years, and was just a fat pig and wants a certificate from the famous Budokai, from Bluming, and also he want to organize something to make money or what. Then all of a sudden two guys from Uruguay come in; their names are Guzman and Daniel, both good guys who have dojos. Carlos, Fernando and Bustillo don’t have dojos, they just train somewhere sometimes. Now I accepted those guys because Carlos asked me too, he was some kind of assistant, so I said, if you say these guys are good, I will accept them. And I did, then all of a sudden when they became 4th dans, then everyone started screaming, how is this possible, and finally I told Carlos, you were the one who told me to accept them. So I told Carlos if you can’t accept it, if it is against your principles (ha, ha, ha) then quit and he did. So I said OK, thanks for everything you did for me, and this is the end then, and then Bustillo quit, and the other one Fernando stopped too. I didn’t care, I slept very well that night, because I was sick of all that !!!!!!!!, and that’s what you have in that whole Budo world. For 50 years I’m in it, in Holland, with Judo in the old days, with Karate later, I was the one who introduced Karate and Judo to Europe; no one did any Karate and Judo. Some people couldn’t even spell it, and some people didn’t even know what it meant. I started from scratch, in December 1961, and we made the first European Union in January 2, 1962, and look at it now in Europe, there are a couple of million dojos, and nobody knows I started it, almost nobody.

    So I’m happy Bustillo and the other guys left, they don’t have members, nothing, the hell with them, and that is the thing you always have to deal with, that’s why I like Joseph Svinth, because he is apart from any !!!!!!!! and politics, he says people want to train, fine, if they don’t want to train, !!!! off. And we don’t care about grades and just want to be taught by someone who knows what he is doing. So they invited me last year, and it was a good seminar. I didn’t know the guys, and now I do know the guys and they invited me again.
    Last edited by Troll Basher; 18th July 2005 at 15:03.

  7. #22
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Here are some mpegs of Oyama (bottom of page) and 1 with some bull footage and another of him doing kumite. I was honestly not impressed by the kumite mpeg.
    http://www.musashi.nl/Engels/frame2eng.htm

  8. #23
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    My former taekwon-do teacher, who was once a "righthand man" to Gen. Choi Hong-Hi (the popularizer of taekwon-do), used to tell stories of meeting Mas Oyama when Gen. Choi and Oyama had a formal meeting to "compare notes," so to speak.

    My teacher and his co-students trained together with Oyama's direct students, and there was much "comparing of notes." My teacher told us that he was impressed with the power of their punching and striking techniques, but not so much with their mobility. They are brick walls, he said, but the downside of that is they don't move a lot, and if you are mobile, it's not hard to get an "in" on them. Every system has its strengths and weaknesses.

    Just a few recollections from the dim past.
    Cady Goldfield

  9. #24
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cady Goldfield
    ........ Every system has its strengths and weaknesses.

    Sorry to knit pick but I have always found this over generalization to be incorrect.
    People have strengths and weaknesses systems don't really have them. Systems merely give you a key to open the door….it’s up to you which door you open and whether you enter or not.

  10. #25
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    Can never quite get any information on the relationship between Oyama and Yoshida Kotaro, though. There is this whole piece about connections with the Yakuza and such. However, there is also that connection between the Yakuza and the Ultranationalists as well. That trail just goes so far and then goes cold. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  11. #26
    Troll Basher Guest

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    On September 30, and October 1, 2003, there were some articles in various national Japanese newspapers and regional newspapers with head titles such as "Prohibition of use of marks, Kyokushin Karate' Kancho' loses lawsuit ", "Kyokushinkaikan, Successor not concluded", "Judgment passed use of Kyokushin's name authorized to disciples", etc.

    These are the publications announcing the court ruled altogether in our favor against Mr Shokei Matsui who appointed himself as Kancho of the Kyokushinkaikan, and secretly acquired the Kyokushin's names and marks and who told us not to obstruct him in using the Kyokushin's names and marks.

    A lawsuit was filed with the Tokyo District Court, plaintiffs Mr Daigo Oishi, Mr Yasuo Takahashi, Mr Shigeru Tabata, Mr Yasuhiro Shichinohe and Mr Yasuhiro Kuwajima, 5 Shihans from our side and with the Osaka District Court, plaintiffs Mr Yukio Okada, Mr Kazuyuki Hasegawa, Mr Riichi Setto, Mr Jun Miwa and Mr Shigenori Sakamoto, another 5 Shihans from our side. So, we had 2 independant lawsuits going on at the same time, of which by coincidence the judgment came one after the other.

    The court ruled against Mr Matsui, at any rate we can run our dojo under Kyokushinkaikan, put advertisements, hold Kyokushin tournaments freely having the rights to use the Kyokushin's names, marks and logo, etc.

    At the same time the court declared that it is illegal to obstruct us using the Kyokushin's names and marks and ordered the defendant pay a compensation fee of totalling Yen 4.6million for the losses that we suffered.

    The three main points of the judgment are as follows :

    1) Mr Matsui claims that there was a Will of the founder of Kyokushinkaikan, Sosai Masutatsu Oyama getting him the position of the successor-kancho.

    But Sosai Masutatsu Oyama's family filed a protest against the Will, as they suspected it to be a forgery. First the Tokyo Family Affairs Court, next the Tokyo High Court and last the Supreme Court ruled that "It cannot be recognized that this Will originates from the real intention of Sosai Oyama".

    Taking this into account, Mr Matsui declared himself as successor / At that time Mr Matsui lost the authority to claim being the successor of Sosai Masutatsu Oyama, Kyokushinkaikan.

    Also third persons who claim to have heard directly from Sosai Masutatsu Oyama that he wanted

    Mr Matsui to be his successor, such verbal evidences miss credibility and cannot be approved.

    2) The Kyokushinkaikan such as it was under Sosai Masutatsu Oyama split in several groups after he passed away, because of several influences.

    Mr Matsui declared himself Kancho of the whole Kyokushinkaikan. But Mr Matsui is the representative of one group.

    Mr Matsui claimed that the groups that separated themselves from the Matsui-group were no longer Kyokushin. But Kyokushinkaikan is not only the Matsui-group, the court clarified claiming otherwise is erroneous.

    3) Sosai Oyama who was leading "Kyokushinkaikan", was the symbol of it. It is known that he spread Kyokushin and made it well-known.

    He was successful in doing so because he could count on the cooperation of the members of his organization, such as Branch Chiefs and sub-Branch Chiefs, who for long years ran dojo and held tournaments under the name of Kyokushinkaikan.

    When Sosai Masutatsu Oyama was still with us he granted the use of the Kyokushin's names and marks to his Branch Chiefs and sub-Branch Chiefs as a matter of course.

    As the circumstances were as such, and Mr Matsui not being Sosai Masutatsu Oyama's successor, being no more than just the representative of one group he does not have the right to prohibit other Kyokushin Branch Chiefs and sub-Branch Chiefs the use of the Kyokushin's names and marks, even if he has registered them.

    If he prevents the use of Kyokushin's names and marks, he abuses his privileges, and if by doing so he causes losses, he has to pay compensation as it is illegal.

    Both the judgments of the Tokyo District Court and the Osaka District Court have endorsed our overall claim up to now. After Sosai Masutatsu Oyama passed away there was a big confusion in the Kyokushin Karate World, that kept going on.

    We think the future of the Kyokushin Karate World is without divergence brighter from now on

    as the contents of this judgment are : "Mr Matsui has no authority to be Kyokushinkaikan Kancho

    and Mr Shokei Matsui does not have the monopoly of the use of names and marks related to Kyokushin Karate."

    We, the 10 plaintiffs who filed this lawsuit, have started up the All Japan Kyokushin Union in December 2001 in order to spread and develop in the right way Kyokushin Karate as it was transmitted by the founder Sosai Masutatsu Oyama. No matter in how many groups the Kyokushin Karate World is split, we want to overcome the borders of the groups and unite in "Kyokushin".

    We hope that the result of this lawsuit will bring us one step closer to getting together the Kyokushin Karate World.

     

    October 1, 2003
    International Karate Organization Kyokushinkaikan
    All Japan Kyokushin Union
    Director General of the Board Kazuyuki Hasegawa



    By Solicitor Seiwa Tanaka

    1.


    On April 26, 1994 Kancho Masutatsu Oyama, Sosai deceased.

     

    2.


    On May 9, 1994 Solicitor Seiwa Tanaka demanded to look into the matter of the Emergency Will with the Tokyo Family Affairs Court against Solicitor Yonezu, as per request of the family of Sosai Masutatsu Oyama, who insisted they were having evidence that the Will was a forgery.

    On March 31, 1995 the Tokyo Family Affairs Court declared that the Will was invalid.
    Solicitor Yonezu objected to his decision and went into appeal.

    On October 16, 1996 the Tokyo High Court rejected the appeal.
    Again Solicitor Yonezu objected to the decision and went into special appeal.

    On March 17, 1997 the Supreme Court dismissed the special appeal, concluding that the Will was invalid.

     

    3.


    On July 11, 1997 Mr. Shokei Matsui acquired the rights of the Kyokushinkaikan marks.
    Mr. Matsui had applied for the registration on May 18, 1994. The Patent Bureau had once refused his application, but after Mr. Yoshiaki Umeda provided him with some documents after three years he received the authorization. Because of this he began forbidding the use of the Kyokushin marks to the other groups.

     

    4.


    On August 31, 2000, three persons Mr. Okada, Mr. Hasegawa and Mr. Seto brought a Provisional Disposition to the Osaka Regional Court against Mr. Matsui because of his hindering of the use of the marks.

    Mr. Matsui opposed to these three persons bringing in a Provisional Disposition claiming his right hindering them of the use of the marks.

    This Court ruled in the same year on December 28, as Mr. Matsui is the leader of only one group it is an abuse of privileges to say that he has the monopoly of the rights of the marks,therefore the claim of Mr. Okada, Mr. Hasegawa and Mr. Seto was recognized and the claim of Mr. Matsui was rejected.

    Even if Mr. Matsui objected to this decision, the same Court rejected this appeal on April 4, 2001. Mr. Matsui dissatisfied with this decision went into appeal with the Osaka High Court. The Osaka High Court dismissed this appeal the same year on October 2.

     

    5.


    On March 19, 2001 7 persons, Mr. Oishi, Mr. Takahashi, Mr. Miwa, Mr. Tabata, Mr. Shichinohe, Mr. Sakamoto and Mr. Kuwajima brought a Provisional Disposition to the Tokyo Regional Court against Mr. Matsui because of his hindering of the use of the marks.

    The same year on October 23 5 persons, Mr. Oishi, Mr. Takahashi, Mr. Tabata, Mr. Shichinohe and Mr. Kuwajima had an amicable settlement with Mr. Matsui, it was compelled that these 5 persons were recognized to have the use of the marks, but with a proviso.

    Mr. Miwa and Mr. Sakamoto continued the lawsuit separately, the same year on December 20 the Tokyo Regional Court turned them down their case for the reason that it was unjust as they were sub-Branch Chiefs.

     

    6.


    The Kyokushinkaikan - All Japan Kyokushin Union was formed in December 2001, it took concrete shape through the reoccurring confrontation in court with Mr. Matsui.

    It started in real earnest activities to obtain a unified group of Kyokushinkaikan, guarding the Kyokushin legacy and the Kyokushin spirit.

     

    7.


    On February 5, 2002 10 persons Mr. Okada, Mr. Hasegawa, Mr. Seto, Mr. Miwa, Mr. Sakamoto, Mr. Oishi, Mr. Takahashi, Mr. Tabata, Mr. Shichinohe and Mr. Kuwajima instituted a suit with the Osaka Regional Court against Mr. Matsui asking for " the confirmation that his claim to prohibit the use of the marks is nonexistent".

    Because of the problem of the interpretation of the before mentioned "amicable settlement" Mr. Oishi and the following 5 persons' case was transferred to the Tokyo Regional Court.

    But following one another the court rulings came out, on September 29, 2003 the Tokyo Regional Court and on Sepbember 30, 2003 the Osaka Regional Court decided in favor of all the plaintiffs on the entire claim.

    Mr. Matsui concluded not to go in appeal against the decision of the Tokyo Regional Court.

    Mr. Matsui was dissatisfied with the decision of the Osaka Regional Court and went into appeal, but on September 29, 2004 the Osaka High Court rejected it.

    Mr. Matsui still dissatisfied with this decision went into appeal to the Supreme Court.

     

    8.


    On August 24 2004 Mr. Okada and another 80 persons filed in a suit with the Osaka Regional Court against Mr. Matsui "he cannot use the title of Kancho of the whole Kyokushinkaikan".

     

    9.


    Principal ideas

    a) Here above are 11 decisions of the court stated. Amongst which 9 decisions were in our favor, 1 amicable settlement tending in our favor and 1 lost case.
    I believe that our driving force lies in the fact that Justice is with us.

    b) As it is a fact that the original Kyokushinkaikan is nowadays a split organization, we have to guard Sosai Oyama's Kyokushin legacy and spirit so that it stays alive, we have to use all our power to gather in a union.

    c) Another opinion : seen from the democratic theory a removal would be only logic.
    It is important that we all come together in an organization like a union against Mr. Matsui so that he doesn't have the monopoly, it is important, it will magnify the strength of the Union organization.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    Sorry to knit pick but I have always found this over generalization to be incorrect.
    People have strengths and weaknesses systems don't really have them. Systems merely give you a key to open the door….it’s up to you which door you open and whether you enter or not.
    That is knitpicking, indeed. I will add to it.
    While it's true that it's people who have the strengths and weaknesses, no one is invincible. That is true of systems too -- remember that people create the systems. There is no art that has all the answers. Though there may be people who can take a system and hone their skills to use relatively few techniques in most situations, there will always be a point of failure.
    Cady Goldfield

  13. #28
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    Oyama sent out hitmen to knock off people he didn't like in the federation? Damn!

  14. #29
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    I'll add my little tidbits about Oyama from personal experience.

    Oyama LOVED the stories about him, most were based on fact but were exaggerated, he did nothing to stop him. He was a very proud man. He was not a saint as many build him up to be, not many of the herald MA masters were. He was thuggish and loved promoting himself, with good reason. I think the only thing that really started to mellow Oyama out was age. He offered to kill (or probably beat to a pulp) Rikidozan after Riki beat up on Kimura after what was supposed to be a "show" prowrestling match. There were yakuza in the dojo and it there was no secret about it.

    Even in his advanced age he was still a powerhouse. I took one punch form him in my side. It was probably not full force but it was enough for me to take a lil break from the class, and I was pretty fit during that time.

    Has anyone seen FIGHTER IN THE WIND? I thought it was a good movie but highly romantisiced. It seems that korea is trying to recliam its heros. Both Rikidozan and Oyama were korean and a movie has come out about both of them highlighting that the were indeed korean.
    LeTerian Bradley

    There are no excuses on the mat, in the cage, or on the battlefeild! Train wisely!

  15. #30
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    I guess that all depends on who you are using for a cross reference.

    Which part(s) of Bluming's information is incorrect?
    Bluming
    Yes, I trained them so good that the CRAZY family (The Gracies) with their big mouths...

    Bluming
    Ashihara became one of my students..
    (that;s a laugh.)

    Q
    Do you remember Shigeru Oyama?
    Bluming
    Oh yes, he’s an asshole.

    Bluming
    Yeah, because I don’t need the money.
    ------------------------------------------------


    A. B. writes

    Robert, that article helps prove my point, it does make interesting reading but it's hard to always take him seriously. If you are asking me about the Florida episode it's way too long to get into and not worth the bother. Suffice to say that his version of it is a flat out lie. Therefore, knowing first-hand what went on, it makes it difficult to rely on what he says about everyone else.

    Nonetheless, go ask Nakamura , Shigeru O. and the Ashihara people what is incorrect.

    Bottom line he is primarily known as judo man anyway ( H. Cook, Shotokan Precise History, p 261 ) Btw Bluming also had a few choice words about Oyata when he saw the outakes of the documentary where Oyayta couldn't make his stuff work over and ioover and over again.
    Something to the effect...
    "it figures, a fairy."

    So, should we believe everything he says? Should we beleive everything we read?



    Note. Don't ask me where I got that piece of info when he comments on Oyata's PP. because I prefer not to tell.

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