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Thread: aiki v3.0

  1. #1
    ultrajohan Guest

    Question

    I read in another thread someone mention that there were different definitions of Aiki in Aikijujutsu, aikido and judo etc.

    Can someone please tell how Aiki is defined in these different styles and maybe differences between different Aikijujutsu styles?

    Regards
    Johan Svensson



    [Edited by ultrajohan on 11-16-2000 at 05:56 AM]

  2. #2
    MarkF Guest

    Question aiki no aiki?

    That is the question of the year, it seems. BTW: Welcome to the forums at E-budo!

    The answer is given in another thread concerning Kondo S. new book, and the translated interviews with the late Takeda Tokimune S. at http://www.koryu.com .

    Since aiki is apparently found in most tai jutsu Japanese fighting styles, each one defines aiki on its own terms. The definition, and apparently, the aiki practiced by the daito ryu is found only in DR, but aiki no jutsu is practiced only by those of DR, as a separate and distinct form from jujutsu, even though the DR school incorporates jujutsu independent of aiki no jutsu, and together with same. Aiki technique is practiced by DR, but others have a curriculum of aiki no jutsu as well. Aiki of judo isn't so different in "feel" than other aiki, but the main difference is in "softening" the style of judo, so as to "feel" aiki. While there is no aiki no jutsu in judo, there definitely is aiki, and can be practiced, but not independently of the jujutsu of judo. But since judo is "a way of life," according to the founder, and aikibudo is really "jutsu," then independent practice of the same aiki no jutsu is not possible. However, it is possible to do DR jujutsu without incorporation of aiki no jutsu, but it seems that aiki is a goal rather than jujutsu.

    Eeeow! Does this make any sense? I haven't had my ice cream yet.

    Mark


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    Eeeow! Does this make any sense?
    Ummm... O.K.

    Not a subject that is easy to discuss, that is for sure.

    Following are some notes I've taken for an (investigative) essay that I've been meaning to write on this subject, fWIW:

    <p>Takeda Tokimune Soke, Nidai Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, defined Aiki in "Daito ryu
    Aikijujutsu" / S. Pranin, pg. 53:</p>

    <p>"Aiki is to pull when pushed, and to push when you are pulled. It is the
    spirit of slowness and speed, of harmonizing your movement with your opponent's
    ki. It's opposite, Kiai, is to push the limit, while Aiki never resists."</p>

    **

    quoted from e-budo.com, Aikijujutsu forum by Mike Campagna 4/2000:

    I will now present to you the three principles of [Daito ryu Aikijujutsu] Roppokai aiki (as explained by Okamoto Seigo Sensei).

    <ul>1. Conditioned response (uke)</ul>
    <ul>2. Circular motion</ul>
    <ul>3. Controlled breathing</ul>

    **

    Okamoto sensei says, "aiki is when you and your opponent become one". But what does that mean? One in what way or ways? (e-budo.com/Keen)

    **

    "Aiki, the core concept of aikido, can be traced back to martial arts literature of the Edo era. According to "Toka Mondo" (trans: Candlelight Discussion), written by the master of Kito-ryu Jujutsu in 1764, aiki means that two fighters come to a standstill in a martial arts bout when they have focused their attention on each other's breathing."

    Prof. Fumiaki Shishida, Waseda University

    **

    Aiki as described by Katsuyuki Kondo sensei, of Daito-ryu, is off balancing at the moment of contact. So the very second the uke or the attacker makes any sort of contact with you, they should be off balanced already. When they strike you, the instant your hand touches them with a block, parry, or other such defense they should be off balanced. Many times with very small taisabaki the uke will be pulled off balance, and straight in to a punch or other atemi. So
    Ate-waza is very important in Daito-ryu aikijujutsu to create instant off balancing, which Kondo sensei calls aiki. This might be a dumbed down concept, Kondo sensei gave us just to make learning easy, I don't know. I susspect that
    aiki in Daito-ryu is far more complex then that.

    (e-budo.com)

    **

    Aiki in our school can be defined as "those methods or techniques that decieve or effect the opponent's senses". In a philisophical sense you can say that these technique off-balance the opponent mentally. But physical contact is
    not necessary. - Yanagi ryu, Don Angier Soke

    (e-budo.com/Richard Elias)

    **

    Ki is "bioelectricity" - Dr. Yang-Jwing Ming


    If anyone has any quotes to add to these, I'd be happy to have them. Also, if your quoted here or know who is and I've not properly credited them, please let me know.

    Hope this helps,

    Nathan Scott

    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    This is reminding me about the old Indian tale of the 5 blind men and the elephant. Each felt a different part of the pachyderm's body, and thus believed that an elephant was, respectively, like a snake, a rope, a tree trunk, a huge piece of flat leather, and a piece of polished stone.

    Perhaps aspects of aiki can be described as all of these things and more, but until you get a holistic exposure to the breadth and depth of its applications, you ain't gonna see the entire elephant, only discrete bits and pieces.

    Cady
    Cady Goldfield

  5. #5
    jzimba Guest

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    I've noticed the folks associated with the Roppokai branch tend to keep bringing up the points about breath
    There's the quote from Brently, and Howard making the coment about breath taking the shape of the technique.
    I'd enjoy hearing more about this, both from them and from other schools
    thanks,

    Joel

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    Cady makes a good point but I still find the discussion interesting. Here are a few quotes for whatever they are worth:

    - Morihei Ueshiba explained it this way, “Aiki is the power of harmony, of all beings, all things working together.” Page 19 of The Spirit of Aikido, by K. Ueshiba.

    - Kenji Tomiki wrote, “Aiki means making your spirit ‘fit’ with your opponents. In other words it means bringing your movements in accord with your opponent’s. After all it means the same thing as the ‘principle of gentleness’, for it is an explanation of the principle from within.” Page 101 of Judo and Aikido, by Kenji Tomiki.

    - Gozo Shioda described it this way, “ Harmonizing of energy, means to lose your own ego; it is the technique of submitting to the natural flow of the universe.” Page 17, Total Aikido the Master Course, by Gozo Shioda.

    - “Aiki means united life force or spirit. This union refers not only to the act of coordinating one’s own body and spirit but to blending with and dominating an opponent as well. In the modern interpretation, aiki usually refers to the act of physically blending with and opponents attack, then using leverage to upset his balance and dominate him.” This was written by Forrest Morgan in his book titled, Living the Martial Way.

    - Lastly, in Donn Draeger’s work, Modern Bujutsu & Budo, the Martial Arts & Ways of Japan Volume III, he quotes two very interesting sources on pages 142 & 143. “The most profound and mysterious art in the world is the art of aiki. This is the secret principle of all the martial arts in Japan. One who masters it can be an unparalleled martial genius.” This was taken from Budo Hitketsu-Aiki no jutsu (The Secret of Budo the Art of Aiki) published in 1899. Also Mr. Draeger writes the following quote from Jujutsu Kyoju-Sho Ryu no Maki (Textbook of Jujutsu, volume on Ryu) published in 1913: “Aiki is an impassive state of mind without a blind side, slackness, evil intention, or fear. There is no difference between aiki and ki-ai: however, if compared, when expressed dynamically aiki is called ki-ai, and when expressed statically, it is aiki.”


    mark

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    Default Mysterious spirituality...or pragmatic mechanics?

    We are human beings, subject to the laws of mechanics, hydraulics and pneumatics. The more I read quotes alluding to spiritual forces and mystertious energies, the more it seems to me that those individuals making the comments either don't know anything, or else know plenty and are covering it up with pseudospiritual crappola so as not to leak precious knowledge.

    Let us contemplate our navels and meditate on the concept of ki...Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
    Cady Goldfield

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    I've known some people who describe aiki as perfect timing, and that timing causes the ability to blend perfectly. Aiki can also be referred to as finding the "sweet spot" in the technique, giving the nage the feel of effortlessness. There are obviously several other mundane explanations of aiki, and they are valid. But, the physical is not the only aspect to aiki, and certainly not to ki.

    I think that it is a gross simplification to lump all the "nonphysical" explanations as mysterious, or spiritual, mumbo-jumbo. Ki or chi has been the province of mystics for millenia. Probably, because those people are the ones who spend the time mastering the self, and training intention(as ki is directed through intention and breath control). But, that does not mean that ki has to stay exclusively with spiritual types. Kirlian photography(invented in 1939) is one type of scientific medium that possibly validates some of this bioelectric "mumbo-jumbo".

    Even more recent explanations of ki are coming out of modern physics. Zero-point energy being one of these areas of study, coming out of quantum physics. It postulates that every cubic cm of space contains enormous amounts of energy existing in perfect equilibrium, which is why we cannot normaly feel it. But intention might be able to alter that equilibrium(I know, sounds like the force, young Skywalker).

    Another branch of physics, called superstring physics, theorizes that the entire universe is connected by vibrating...strings, for lack of a better term, that are trillions of times smaller than an atom. This could also lead to an explanation of ki. This theory is making some real headway in uniting electromagnetism, gravity, and nuclear forces.

    With branches of modern physics getting closer to explaining some of the real life "mystical phenomena" that humans experience, and with western medicine beginning to see validity in TCM(Traditional Chinese Medicine), which is based in the flow of bioelectric chi(ki), I don't think we should be so quick to scoff at seemingly "New Age flights of fancy", or "mystical nonsense".

    My two cents,

    (p.s. some of the information on physics above was drawn from a book called The Way of Aikido: Life Lessons From an American Sensei, by George Leonard. I don't remember chapter or page, but I didn't want to be accused of plagarising[sp?])

    [Edited by R Erman on 11-17-2000 at 07:24 AM]
    Rob Erman

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    "...mechanics, hydraulics, and pneumatics"

    Yes, and pneumatics is the study of the flow of pneuma, which is also called ki.

    Jesse Peters

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    Default My finger tips need some Ki....

    I am with you on this one Cady. No mysterious forces, although I do marvel at the forces.

    There are a few threads on the on other popular forums dealing with the specific topic of “ki” and for the most part most the rhetoric is ethereal in nature.

    I am doing the “un-Aiki” thing already by ducking, because I know this will draw some fire downrange!

    It seems from my limited exposure to the “Aiki”, the entire human operating system must be functioning at peak levels before any hope of achieving total harmony with a determined opponent can be realized.

    One’s entire worldview must be scrutinized almost daily to function with peak efficiency using an “Aiki” operating system to solve problems.

    What is the human operating system? IMHO Body, Mind and Spirit is an accurate model. The three cannot accurately or neatly dissected and separated.

    I leave out spirit in the traditional “good” and “evil” sense, because it would be difficult to argue what a “good” or “bad” spirit is in relation to combat. If an individual was truly “evil”, would that nullify their ability to blend with a punch, redirect that energy to off-balance the attacker and send them to the next world by inverting them to facilitate a neck break?

    If you will allow me, I am going to substitute Spirit with Breath as they are often interchanged in the many notable spiritual texts.

    The Aiki principles and explanation of these principles seem to be tied together by a strong bond of operating in perfect union with an opponent intents and physical movements. The end result of this temporary union, can vary greatly depending on the desire and skill of the Aiki practitioner, scaling from a simple redirection to catastrophic injury or death to the attacker. In order to achieve this type of union, one must physically move in harmony with energy that is known to travel in waves, a scientific, repeatable and definable fact. I personally believe this energy transfer system was created by intelligent design. True or not, the energy is here and can be harnessed and directed for our use. What we are doing through training is merely learning to apply the immutable laws of the physical universe with and to the human body in motion.

    Of course to do all this, one must have exceptional skills in perception, the ability to identify rhythms, and possess a keen understanding of timings, while operating in a compressed timeframe.

    When some folks achieve this type of skill, those down the food chain tend to aggrandize or spiritualize the methodologies simply because they cannot easily explain the results through “normal” cause and effect.

    Perception seems to be a master key.

    1. If one perceives that in order to successfully neutralize an attack or move an opponent, one must lever, contract large muscle groups or apply extended, vigorous physical contact, one’s mind and body will mirror that perceived reality. This same individual will train accordingly.

    2. If one learns to successfully neutralize an attack or moves opponents in very “soft” ways, but explains the results couched with spiritual terminology, students may believe and embrace the explanation as he or she has just seen or felt something not previous experienced. If one holds this worldview, anything happening must be done through some type of inner pool of energy or spiritual power. The perception is carried forth through successive student/teacher relationships.

    3. If one perceives that one can move an opponent by doing “almost nothing” and understands the bio-mechanical and mental triggers to lead an opponent to move him or herself, the mind, body, training, defense and offence will mirror that perceived reality.

    I quote from a previous post:
    Aiki in our school can be defined as "those methods or techniques that deceive or effect the opponent's senses". In a philosophical sense you can say that these technique off-balance the opponent mentally. But physical contact is not necessary. - Yanagi ryu, Don Angier Soke

    (e-budo.com/Richard Elias)


    None of this perceived reality would do you any good if you do not have exceptional technical prowess, which comes from intelligent guidance, patience, and a cultivated awareness.

    All Aiki systems deal stress the importance of breath, but vary its usage during the application of technique.

    Since our body is part of the matrix is must remain in balance and in a state of adaptable fluidity. In order to achieve this state of being, one must control the mind. In order to keep the mind in control, the breath must be in control, plain and simple. The three (body, mind, and breath) in this sense are inseparable.

    If the breath is chaotic and non-controlled, you can be certain the body and mind will follow this pattern. If you are out of control, how can you expect to control your opponent?

    Any world-class athlete will have breath control.

    No contemplation of the navel required…..Good instruction, quality training, and an intense desire to see what is already been placed here should suffice.

    Respectfully,




    [Edited by kenjgood on 11-17-2000 at 12:16 AM]
    Ken J. Good
    Strategos International
    http://stategosintl.com
    [/url]

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    Ken,
    Good post and thanks for sharing, I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I believe I understand what you are saying about breath and agree but take a slightly different view I would like to bounce off of you.

    You wrote: "If you will allow me, I am going to substitute Spirit with Breath as they are often interchanged in the many notable spiritual texts. "

    Certainly breath plays a large role in the use of aiki but I tend to see it as one component of spirit and not an entire replacement. To me, spirit is more along the lines of 'intent or focus' of both uke and tori. Breath is one element that can be used to change or further focus that intent. However, breath is not the only element that can be used to change that intent. I agree, that as breath relates to tori, one must maintain control of their breathing and relaxation or they have little hope of successfully using aiki to control their attacker.

    To study aiki I see three parts or sub-groups that must be studied. First, one must have control and understanding of mind, body, and spirit (intent) as it relates to themselves (tori). Secondly, one must understand how aiki (mind, body, spirit) relates to their attacker (uke) and thirdly, the dynamic relationship that exsists between uke and tori. If I understand a great deal of aiki as it relates only to myself and I stay relaxed, focus, empty minded, etc but I don't understand how aiki works/affects my attacker it is unlikely that I will have much success. This is one of the reasons that to learn an aiki art one must be a very realistic uke, this is when one learns a great deal of the art. Another example would be if I have a good understanding of how aiki relates to myself and uke but can not put it into a context/relationship that is affective, i.e. don't have the skills or perception to bring that knowledge to bear.

    Simply put aiki is the changing/controling of your attackers intent while maintaining your own and directing the resulting relationship to your own desires. I hope I haven't gotten to far of the beaten path, plus I tried to keep this reasonably short so I glossed over alot of stuff. Let me know what you think.

    mark

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    Mark, you beat me to it!

    I agree with alot of what Ken said, you have to have a very solid physical foundation to apply aiki. Remember, however that the physical must be balanced by the mental and spiritual. Also, I agree that intention is the key(ki).

    I do feel that meditation is necessary for harnessing the self, and that sefl-mastery alows us to be open and in tune with the subtle energies around us. I've met MA's whose technique was atrocious, "but darnit, they spent alot of time developing ki, and that's all they need". I think that view is more off-base than the "physical technique and hard training is all you need", opinion.

    Lastly, I want to make clear that I am not saying ki will make you unstoppable. It's referred to as subtle energy for a reason. It can enhance sensitivity, as well as day to day living. But I don't think that it will turn you into a superhuman or a pseudo-Jedi.

    Cheers,
    Rob Erman

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    Interesting comments, Ken. I would go further to offer that the forces at work on the body in motion need not be split down to sub-molecular level such as are quantum physics, but,rather, recognized as good old Newtonian principles. Breathing, timing, mechanics and biomechanics fall within the realm of the non-mystical, although there are those who can evoke a sense of spiritual mystique for anything and everything.

    If you want to ascribe mystical forces to the act of learning to drive a car, fine by me, but IMO that's a willful desire to *not* see the forest for the trees.

    Cady
    Cady Goldfield

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    Cady wrote: "Interesting comments, Ken. I would go further to offer that the forces at work on the body in motion need not be split down to sub-molecular level such as are quantum physics, but,rather, recognized as good old Newtonian principles. Breathing, timing, mechanics and biomechanics fall within the realm of the non-mystical, although there are those who can evoke a sense of spiritual mystique for anything and everything. "

    Certainly the physiological aspects are of the utmost importance and everything can be explained mechanically, however, I believe it is equally important to look at the psychological aspect as well. Since the attacker is an unwilling body in motion with his/her own intent we can change that intent by using physical force, psychological manipulation or a combination of both. This psychologial manipulation is what Okamoto Sensei refers to as conditioned response.

    My personal spin on this is that conditioned response can be broken down and studied in two sub-categories I call them conditioned reflex and adverserial response. Conditioned reflex would be the natural reflexes that we are born with plus the ones we are conditioned to with time. Maintaining our balance falls into this category, it is not something we are born with but we learn very early in life and it becomes part of our programming, to the point of becoming a reflex. Each of us constantly makes adjustments, without thinking, to maintain a steady upright position. When our posture is disturbed we make adjustments to correct it (could mean taking a step, adjusting our weight, leaning, etc). If our balance is disturbed to the point we can't recover we fall down, but we still make a reflex like action to the intial stimulus.

    Adverserial response is a reflex like actions that occurs when we feel threatened or perceive a dynamic rapidly changing environment. Target tracking is an example of this. When one decides to strike or grab an opponent with real intent, the eye will focus on the intended target and if that target moves within certain parameters the attackers focus will automatically follow the target. There are several exercises to demontrate this but I will skip those for now to keep this a little bit shorter. This automatic tracking of the target can be used to manipulate the attacker's body/posture, i.e. make them over commit there balance then the sudden reflex to regain their balance. We can get two predetermined reactions out of our attacker that we can use aggainst them. Also note that many of the conditioned reflexes are hightened or exaggerated in this adverserial environment (the reflex to maintain balance is greatly enhanced here).

    By understanding the affects of conditioned responses and how to use them against an opponent, one can change the attackers intent without physical contact, align the attacker's body in a position for a successful counter attack, use the attackers own muscles/energy to cause them harm, etc. This knowledge coupled with the physiological knowledge of body mechanics, physics, etc leads to tremendous results and is at the heart of aiki, IMHO.

    mark

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    Default Great Discussion!

    Hi guys,

    Some really well thought out posts here.

    Mr. Good - welcome to the forum! Glad to have you here.

    A couple of things occur to me from reading these posts that I'd like to toss in the salad.

    Neil Y. and I were just yacking in PM yesterday about researching aiki. Personally, I like to seperate (to some degree) the massive subject/controversy of "ki/qi/chi" from "Aiki". Yeah, I know they can't literally be seperated, but to discuss and/or define ki is a helluva undertaking, and I believe to give it justice thorough research and experience in related Chinese arts is required (which I don't have nearly enough of, personally).

    However, Aiki is a Japanese term (though it can be seen in non-Japanese arts, under a different name), and as such I think it is a little more comfortable for most of us here to try to tackle - judging from the fact that your all posting on this forum.

    When speaking of Ki, you often here "mysterious" type references; and perhaps when discussing Aiki as well. It occurs to me that there are two wide schools of thought regarding aiki:

    -those that believe that aiki is based on explainable, logical concepts. Refined manipulation of the opponent's body and movement, physical sensitivity, and perhaps a degree of reliance on "predictable human reactions". I believe traditions like Yanagi ryu and others would fall into this school of thought. It could be argued that the term "aiki" was coined because it was the simplest way to define a complex concept that requires a high level of sensitivity in one word: "harmonized energy". In other words, maybe "aiki" is not to be thought of quite so literally.

    -those that believe in the above explainable elements, but also believe that the literal flow of "ki" is also manipulated to a point where it's successful use is a mojor part of performing "aiki". The use of such ki force seems to be difficult if not impossible to explain, and not widely understood if it does exist. so this principle remains "mysterious".

    It would be interesting to know which styles consider themselves a part of which catagory. These two major schools of thought, BTW, may or may not have anything to do with the similarity/differences between DR aiki and classical aiki. Don't know.

    On another point regarding kokyu,

    I don't know about anyone else, but I went through a time where I looked into various methods of kokyu and asked seniors I knew of their opinion. One of the better sources I found was an article in Journal of Asian Martial Arts in which the author researched breathing methods of various martial arts from various countries.

    His conclusion, as was mine, seemed to be that breathing should be done "naturally". (Duh, right?). If you move in "harmony" with your opponent (aiki), then the timing of the breath will adjust naturally if the execution of waza is performed correctly. In other words, if you train correctly for long enough, your breathing will naturally adjust to best aid the requirements imposed on your body - just as your muscles do. The spirit becomes stronger, the body becomes stronger and conditioned to the movements performed repetitively over a long time, and the timing and method of the breath also adjusts to give allow your body to operate as efficiently as possible.

    Of course it's important to be instructed at some point in how to breath naturally, from your lower abdomen ("like a new born child"), and when possible to inhale through the nose and exhale through the mouth. But aside from proper method of breathing, the rest might be learned naturally through years of correct training. Since I'm not an aiki-master, I can't say if this natural approach is sufficient or not to achieving a high level or aiki. But to my knowledge and experience so far I do not have reason to believe otherwise.

    You inhale to expand your body (think iriminage/sayunage/sokumen irimi etc. or tenchinage), and exhale to contract your body.

    Some people say that when you "kiai", you exhale, and when you use "aiki", you inhale. You exhale when you do things like striking or receiving body blows. But you inhale often when (at least) initiating an aiki technique.

    It may be as simple as exhale when you wish to use the power of contraction, and inhale when you want to use the power of expansion.

    That's just what I've come up with so far. What do you think?

    PS. Mark-san, thanks for the quotes. I nabbed 'em for my "investigative essay in progress".
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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