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Thread: Shotokan's Secret

  1. #16
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    Originally posted by Jason Ward
    I would suggest that one should look at the inherent principles within those forms, (that support the laws of nature), and then begin to look at the transmission of those forms from one cultural society to another. Taking into consideration the environment, Sociological patterns of that time, and of course the individuals mentioned, we can explore this idea more fully. Since the book is about Shotokan, why don’t we take a form from Shotokan and perform this experiment right here and now, and dissect it.
    Interesting idea. Question, though. If we're going to discuss a kata and its original applications, do we want to discuss the kata as performed in a more "modern" style (e.g. Shotokan's version of tekki) or the kata as performed during the time in which the applications we believe are true were developed?

    Tekki, since we've brought up the subject, was performed in Naihanchi-dachi, which was much higher and more similar to sanchin-dachi than the horseback-riding stance in which it is now performed. That stance allowed for more mobility, and was a more inward-tension stance, as well as a close-combat stance. (e.g. designed to prevent you getting kicked in the goolies as easily in close) So current applications that make use of the wide, low stance may not be valid with the older stance. Moreover, it just doesn't make sense to me to face an opponent in a widelegged stance in which your weak line points DIRECTLY at him, as does your groin. Sounds like a recipe for rolling around on the ground screaming to me.

    So, do you have to assume a rectilinear battlefield where all attacks come in on the standard right, left, front, behind vectors, or are 45 degree attacks admissible? The stances seem to indicate that 45 degree attacks are better, simply because the standard ones all come in where the stance is weakest.


    Just my two cents
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    I would like to comment briefly on the scholarship Mr. Clayton offers in one of his main contentions, which I see as a comparison of Shotokan to the teachings of Kyan sensei.

    As a Shotokan Stylist, he finds that the pinacle of the arts, and tries hard to discredit Kyan's teachings, but in a most curious way.

    In that Isshinryu is an offshoot of Kyan karate, his main tool of analysis is a comparison of the Isshinryu of Javier Martinez's books.

    I find this questionable. For if I wanted to examine Kyan's teachings my first thought would be to use that of the Seibukan, as expressed by Shimabukoro Zempo, as a direct lineage of Kyan's style. His choice of Isshinryu to analyze Kyan's ablities is rather mysterious to me.

    Isshinryu, in all it variations, and of which Martinez Sensei only represents one of those variations, as of course I only represent one in turn, is not necessarily a very strong case to make concerning Kyan's teachings.

    Of course we all will interpret a work like Mr. Clayton's from our own perspectives, but I believe the scholarship used for some of his works major contentions, most questionable.

    And as one of my students, who is a MD and regularily throws books out of my house that have bad medical or anatomical descriptions, makes the point, if even one element is wrong, how can you trust the rest?

    Pondering,

    Victor Smith
    bushi no te isshinryu

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    Interesting idea. Question, though. If we're going to discuss a kata and its original applications, do we want to discuss the kata as performed in a more "modern" style (e.g. Shotokan's version of tekki) or the kata as performed during the time in which the applications we believe are true were developed?

    Tekki, since we've brought up the subject, was performed in Naihanchi-dachi, which was much higher and more similar to sanchin-dachi than the horseback-riding stance in which it is now performed. That stance allowed for more mobility, and was a more inward-tension stance, as well as a close-combat stance. (e.g. designed to prevent you getting kicked in the goolies as easily in close) So current applications that make use of the wide, low stance may not be valid with the older stance. Moreover, it just doesn't make sense to me to face an opponent in a widelegged stance in which your weak line points DIRECTLY at him, as does your groin. Sounds like a recipe for rolling around on the ground screaming to me.

    So, do you have to assume a rectilinear battlefield where all attacks come in on the standard right, left, front, behind vectors, or are 45 degree attacks admissible? The stances seem to indicate that 45 degree attacks are better, simply because the standard ones all come in where the stance is weakest.


    Just my two cents
    I have heard the “new” stance is the higher stance and the old stance is the lower one.
    As can be seen in photos of Motobu and others performing the kata.
    As for getting kicked in the “gems” anyone that thinks that is a “kamae” or fighting stance instead of a “transitional” stance moving from one part of the technique to another part deserves to get kicked in balls. Considering the wider lower kibadachi stance is used as part or a takedown technique I can understand their rationale for performing it low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    I have heard the “new” stance is the higher stance and the old stance is the lower one.
    As can be seen in photos of Motobu and others performing the kata.
    As for getting kicked in the “gems” anyone that thinks that is a “kamae” or fighting stance instead of a “transitional” stance moving from one part of the technique to another part deserves to get kicked in balls. Considering the wider lower kibadachi stance is used as part or a takedown technique I can understand their rationale for performing it low.
    In parts of Tekki Shodan and parts of Nidan, certainly. Kibodach is wonderful for those locks/throws, since it is designed to take the weight of someone coming from a 45-degree angle. I doubt that for Sandan, though. Those incredibly fast complicated series of blocks and punches near the beginning, as well as that repeated circular double-handed maneuver that's in all three kata, that's not a takedown, that's infighting before the takedown. And THAT needs to be in more of a sanchin-dach in regular practice or the techniques can't be used. A lot of that, imho, is maneuvering in close for the technique that disbalances and opens them up for a takedown and lock.

    As I recall, these kata were Itosu's babies and some of his favorites. Not sure if he made them or just adapted them, but I'm fairly sure he had a lot to do with them, and is probably who taught Funakoshi. Given his style of fighting, that should help with interpretation. He was very strong, and didn't mind getting hit much. Almost more Naha style, for all his Shuri techniques and origins.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Victor

    He also misreperesents the Naha systems--such as Goju and Chinese systams as well.
    Builds a neat little "straw-ma" then goes and draws spurious conclusion from it.

    Chris Thomas

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    Chris,

    You are correct. When a friend lent me his copy for my opinion, I focused on the Kyan material becasue of the use of Isshinryu for Kyan analysis.

    My overall opinion, there might be some merit in some of his theory, but so much of the book was a case of special pleading and the research didn't support the contentions, that I gave up trying to document what was actually taking place.

    It's far easier to write something, than to write something that you can support on it's research merit.
    Victor Smith
    Bushi No Te Isshinryu
    www.funkydragon.com/bushi

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    1) In parts of Tekki Shodan and parts of Nidan, certainly. Kibodach is wonderful for those locks/throws, since it is designed to take the weight of someone coming from a 45-degree angle.
    2) I doubt that for Sandan, though. Those incredibly fast complicated series of blocks and punches near the beginning, as well as that repeated circular double-handed maneuver that's in all three kata, that's not a takedown, that's infighting before the takedown. And THAT needs to be in more of a sanchin-dach in regular practice or the techniques can't be used. A lot of that, imho, is maneuvering in close for the technique that disbalances and opens them up for a takedown and lock.

    As I recall, these kata were Itosu's babies and some of his favorites. Not sure if he made them or just adapted them, but I'm fairly sure he had a lot to do with them, and is probably who taught Funakoshi. Given his style of fighting, that should help with interpretation. He was very strong, and didn't mind getting hit much. Almost more Naha style, for all his Shuri techniques and origins.
    1) 45 degrees? Well I hope all my attackers come at me at 45 degrees if that is the criteria for executing those techniques. Not to be rude but perhaps you may want to consider re-thinking those bunkai. Just a thought.
    2) You may want to pick up a copy of some bunkai tapes my teacher has put out on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    1) 45 degrees? Well I hope all my attackers come at me at 45 degrees if that is the criteria for executing those techniques. Not to be rude but perhaps you may want to consider re-thinking those bunkai. Just a thought.
    2) You may want to pick up a copy of some bunkai tapes my teacher has put out on that.

    Wasn't quite what I meant.
    Trying to point out, and maybe you've picked up on this already, that an awful lot of people analyze kata with attacks coming in a cruciform pattern, only from the 4 cardinal directions. Ever seen Kenneth Funakoshi's kata tapes? Never gets attacked on a diagonal, etc. Comes up with some of the most bloody awful bunkai I've ever seen. My own thought is this. If you're attacked from both sides at once, your first move, unless you're an idiot or immobilized in some terribly effective way, is probably to get them both where you can see them, e.g., you step back so they're not on the same line you are, and can't attack you from 180 to each other where you can't easily resist them/maneuver them into each other/escape and run like buggery.

    There are other reasons why I think of 45s in a kata that includes kibodachi the way it does. 1. Straight on is not an option unless you pull the stance in to a shorter one that protects nuts. (I have no problem with this for some of the techniques, especially in nidan and sandan, as I mentioned, I think that this is how they were originally done. There was a naihanchi-dachi, and it was much closer to sanchin than kibodachi, and if there are naihanchi kata and a naihanchi stance, makes sense to me that they go together, neh?) For other techniques, including the start of naihanchi/tekki shodan, kibodachi's ok, because I don't think you're reacting to a threat directly in front of you.

    HOWEVER, I do NOT think that you're dealing with threats directly at 90 degrees. I have a few reasons for this. One is the cross-body techniques in shodan just won't work if you have to reach that far across your body. Two is that you're just not that strong on that angle. It's basic anatomy. The closer in and further towards the front you are, the more your muscles can engage and the quicker they are. At a 90 degree angle, most of your muscles are in their weakest position, and you're relying a good deal on your upper back, which is just not strong enough. At a 45, your lats and such can still engage in a meaningful way, which means that your techniques have a chance of working.

    By the way, I tend to think of the tekkis as theme and variation, not as narrative. I also think that the stance, as in wing chun, is more of a place-holder. In a fight, using those techniques, you'd be maneuvering a good deal more. The stance is a means of telling you that you're in close, that you're going to collide with them at some point, and that you need to take the force and weight and absorb them in order to control and finish. The kata for me are notations, like shorthand, which suggest a way of fighting and various solutions to it.


    In summary, if you have an attacker come at you dead on, use a stance and technique that allow you to deal with them dead on. If tactical or strategic interests require that they come in at 45 degrees, perhaps because they've got a buddy whom you're keeping an eye on, would it be too much to ask to turn your body so that they're on a 45 to you, or step sideways so they have to come in at that angle? What's the issue with changing your body to control theirs? I have never thought, well, I'm going to use tekki on this guy, so he'd just better come in a certain way. If he comes in straight on, I may reciprocate, slide sideways, back up, switchback and move around him, etc. I'm not going to insist that I use techniques from a certain kata to deal with someone. I'm going to use whatever techniques are appropriate, be they chinto, chintei, naihanchi, wankan, or seipai. One kata teaches techniques for one situation set, another teaches techniques that help in another.
    Last edited by Trevor Johnson; 25th May 2005 at 02:06.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  9. #24
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    I have seen a bit of K. Funakoshi’s bunkai……not interested in what I saw of it. Unfortunately I have seen a great deal of crap bunkai on the internet and other places from some of the “foremost experts” as they are often billed. I can’t believe some people eat it up and think it is “practical”
    Sad but true.
    I kind of agree with you on the 45 thing…..however I try to adjust my defense to whatever angle I am being attacked at, then go in a direction that will inflict the most pain.
    For example: If I am in natural stance and someone is in front of me and strikes, pushes, grabs, reaches out etc. I will try and control the attacking limb then go say 45 degrees off of my line to the left towards them and then suddenly do 180 degrees in the direction I just came from all the while executing the technique……perfect world scenario but just as an example. For doing tuite this type of move makes it hurt like a mother. I don’t wait for them to get on my 45 degree line I try and put them there…….I hope this makes sense since bunkai is really hard to explain over the Internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    For example: If I am in natural stance and someone is in front of me and strikes, pushes, grabs, reaches out etc. I will try and control the attacking limb then go say 45 degrees off of my line to the left towards them and then suddenly do 180 degrees in the direction I just came from all the while executing the technique……perfect world scenario but just as an example. For doing tuite this type of move makes it hurt like a mother. I don’t wait for them to get on my 45 degree line I try and put them there…….I hope this makes sense since bunkai is really hard to explain over the Internet.
    That's pretty much what I just said. I do have one quibble. The kata don't always show the most efficient and damaging way of taking someone out. This imho, is often because of other considerations. They may have buddies, YOU may have kids. If you go for the most devastating strike it may put you in a bad position.
    This is one thing we practice a lot, is controlling the lines someone can use, as well as defending an area. Put one of your people in the area on his knees (bib and lollipop are used depending on their sense of humor. ) They can't resist or move very far. Then see what you can do to protect them from one person. Then 2, so that charging forwards to meet them doesn't work. At that point, moving minimally makes a lot more sense, since you CAN'T leave the area alone.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Also, btw, gives a lot of info about throws. Kinder, gentler throws that they can roll out of are bad because they can use them to roll right in and grab baby hostage. So you roll them away from baby or use a really nasty throw/lock that they can't get up from so easily. You also get a real shock when you try the sliding out of the way approach and don't adequately stop them. If they keep rushing when you expect them to turn and try to track you, baby's in trouble. So controlling the directions you throw them, using them as roadblocks for their buddies, etc, are all better options now, even if they don't get as injured.
    And then of course there's the, ok, I fight and die and baby runs away scenario, but that's one of those strategies it's hard to properly train for.

    (Should have added this in to the other post, but time had run out)
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  12. #27
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    Default Shotokan Interpretation

    Martial arts enthusiasts and arm-chair historians know that Shotokan is the "telephone-game" version of Old-style Okinawan Shorinryu (telephone game = one person whispers in another's ear a long sentence and then that person passes the message along to the next person etc, etc. and the sentence that the last person in line hears is usually completely different in meaning than the originial sentence uttered by the first person in line) .

    I may step on some toes by stating this but it doesn't take much to realize this once you put the two side by side and compare kata. As a result, when the author bases his thesis on a critique of Shotokan as a self-defense system, he is starting at the end of the "telephone-game" and the misinterpreted message. Some of the words may be the same, but the message is almost unrecognizable from old-style Okinawan shorin.

    A more interesting analysis would be to start with old-style shorin. However, there are few practitioners trying to learn shorin and even fewer teachers so you don't hear much about it in the publishing world.

    In no way do I mean to disrespect any Shotokan practitioner or their choice of style. I trained in Shotokan for 4 years when I first started learning karate as a kid. I followed the trail from Shotokan, to a sport-version of shorin, to an old-style of Okinawan Shorin and Ti, which I am trying to learn currently. In following the trail I became aware of the nature of the telephone game that had been played from Okinawa to Japan to the US to Canada, in which I had been the unwitting recipient of the final misleading message. So, my opinions are not uninformed is what I am trying to say, but based on years of trying to figure out why anyone would do some of the things I used to do in my Shotokan katas. I found out the why and have never looked back and it all makes sense now...every piece fits!

    Best regards,
    Tim Black

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    And then back to Southern Chinese styles from Okinawan? It's interesting to note that, no matter how accurate the transmission of information, the culture ALWAYS changes it. Okinawans are a lot more close-in fighters than the Japanese, Japanese put an invisible sword in things (range of tournaments is a good example, as is oneshot kills), chinese consider longterm health and chi flows in the body more important in their training (unlike Japanese, they WANT to live forever...) I personally like the more Chinese feel of Okinawan training. Not that I don't like swords (oooh, shiny!!!) I just can't ever see myself facing a real life opponent armed with a sword.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  14. #29
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    I just can't ever see myself facing a real life opponent armed with a sword.
    Think again.

    http://www.math.metu.edu.tr/~dpierce/texts/samurai.html

    A 26-year-old man was charged with attempted murder on Monday after a samurai sword attack during mass in a south London church last Sunday that left 11 people injured, four of them critically, writes Audrey Gillan.
    Jim Cotter

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    Minor glitch in meaning, I meant I can't see myself facing an opponent with ME armed with a sword. This is, naturally, assuming I don't go bugnuts, foam at the mouth, and start hacking down passersby as in the article, but those who know me well know that the passersby are more likely to hack me down just to stop the horrible jokes...
    BWT, admirable use of improvised weapons to stop him, though that policeman's probably getting teased a lot on his choice.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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