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Thread: Shotokan's Secret

  1. #31
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    though that policeman's probably getting teased a lot on his choice.
    Actually he was given a award for bravery.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1677884.stm

    A police officer who helped overpower a man attacking churchgoers with a sword, will be honoured with a top bravery award on Tuesday.
    PC Thomas Tracey, who is based in Croydon, will receive the Commissioner's High Commendation, the Metropolitan Police's top award.
    This award is just short of the George Cross which is a very big deal when awarded for bravery.

    http://www.angelfire.com/va/violette...orgecross.html
    Jim Cotter

  2. #32
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    Of course he was tremendously brave, I just think people might have issues about him smiting perps with his mighty organ/pipe...
    And one of the other bystanders smiting the guy with a cross is just wonderful...
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  3. #33
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    One thing to consider in the bodyguard question:
    Why would the Okinawans - if they knew of the artillery, guns and rifles (and canons on board the ships) which were shown by Perry and others - not use distance weapons, like bows and arrows instead of trying to fight hand to hand?

    "The Commodore, with the captain of the fleet and Commanders Buchanan, Lee, and Walker, then passed down the line of the marines and artillerymen, when the procession was immediately formed. First came two field-pieces, under the command of Lieutenant Bent, each having above it the American ensign, and immediately preceded by the master of the Susquehanna, (Mr. Bennet,) with Mr. Williams and Dr. Bettelheim, the interpreters. Next followed the band of the Mississippi with a company of marines, under command of Major Zeilin. The Commodore followed then in a sedan chair, which had been manufactured for the nonce, by the carpenter on board the ship. It was emphatically a dignified vehicle, as became the occasion, large and stately, deeply indebted to paint and putty, not quite as polished as a turnout from Newark or Longacre, but, on the whole, decidedly a feature in the procession, though its hangings of red and blue were not of the finest. At all events, it was the most imposing sedan the Lew Chewans ever saw. It was borne by eight Chinese coolies, four relieving each other alternately. On each side of it marched a marine as body guard, while a handsome boy had been selected as a page, who, with a Chinese steward, were the immediate personal attendants.
    Captain Adams, Lieutenant Contee, and Mr. Perry, followed the sedan. Next appeared six coolies bearing the presents designed for the prince and queen dowager, and guarded by a file of marines. Then came the officers of the expedition, headed by Captains Buchanan, Lee, and Sinclair, followed by their servants. Next were the band of the Susquehanna, and a company of marines closed the procession, which in numbers amounted to some two hundred or more.
    [...]
    They [the natives] did not manifest the smallest apprehension, notwithstanding the presence of the marines under arms, and evidently were pleasantly exited by the spectacle before them.
    [...]
    On arriving at the entrance [of Shuri castle], the artillery and marines were drawn up in line, and the Commodore and his suite walked past them into the castle or palace; the troops presented arms, the ensigns were lowered, and the band played "Hail Columbia.
    [...]
    Boat exercise in the harbor formed also part of the occupation of the several crews; while the marines were on shore, drilling under the charge of their officers."
    [...]
    After all the other boats had gone, the Commodore set out in his barge, and on his arrival the marines were found, under arms, and in line, under a grove of trees by the road-side, near the landing.
    [...]
    They gave the name of the place as Piño. Mr. Heine took a sketch of it, and astonished the natives, some forty of fifty of whom had collected to look at us, by firing at a mark with his rifle.
    From: Hawks, Francis L.: Narrative of the Expedition of an American Squadron to the China Seas and Japan, performed in the years 1852, 1853, and 1854, under the command of Commodore M. C. Perry, United States Navy, by Oder of the Government of the United States.Compiled from the Original Notes and Journals of Commodore Perry and his Officers, at his Request and under his Supervision, By Francis L. Hawks, D. D. LL. D. With numerous Illustrations. D. Appleton and Company, New York; Trübner & Co. London 1857.
    This was in 1853/54 or so. I must add, the artillery and marines stayed out the walls of Shuri, so the "kings room" theory might still be working.

    "If the Okinawans were to be attacked in their castles, they would lock the front gate and take the rear exit." True or not?

    When in 1609 the Satsuma came to Okinawa, the king begged to find a peaceful solution to it, but the Satsuma denied. 3 or 4 skirmishes and it was over.

    The whole Jutsu-idea projected on Okinawan martial arts is sometimes so hard to believe, and so wicked. There are so many islands anywhere in the world were some sort of stickfighting, wrestling etc. has been employed. There are always different approaches to it, among them amusement; pastime. In peaceful Okinawa, where the king had not to fear anyone and the castle guards may - comparatively - have had the most relaxed job in the world; where the higher class, officials etc. (2/3 of the population) did not much but talk together, smoke a pipe, drink some tea, another pipe etc. - while the women were doing the work, and also the hard work - it should be put into consideration that the martial arts of Ryukyu historically have been more of different kind than we sometimes would like them to be; maybe of a theatrical kind, of amusement, pastime, machismo, etc. The theatricals plays show weapons like the spear and tinbe etc., and the Bô-odori shows the same techniques as the martial arts (by the way: often in direct and good application while "dancing").

    Between China and Japan the Okinwans must have known one thing very well: that fighting against any of those would be the end of their being. After the Satsuma invasion, there were only some very few officials from Satsuma put to live in Naha; that was enough to do the job. Would they have had reason to fear rebellion? Oh yes, and then, what?

    When the Westerners came, and with them their "new" weapons, would the Okinawans think about fighting against them?

    The Okinawans in their history seem to have been master of solving their overall national martial inferiority - which cannot be gainsaid - by accommodation. For the individual, it should not been much different, although there surely have been exceptions to this. This Okinawan speciality in all its characteristics was - some will love to hear that - taken into consideration by the peace movements in this world as a paragon. But tenaciously it needs to be a deadly martial art, so that a dancing beautiful old men becomes a bloodthirsty killing machine (like, you! )

    There was the idea in this thread to put someone forward who is not the king in order to protect him best. In fact, Perry never met the king, but only the regent (sessei), who - like most of the other higher and lower officials - was instrumentalized by the Satsuma; a thing not that big a story.

    In fact, after the coming of more and more Western ships to Okinawa from 1800 on, and with the overall problems of Western colonisation in Asia, together with Satsumas duty to protect the southern borders, there was made up a small garrison of Satsuma samurai in Okinawa. This is known because Dr. Bettelheim accidentally came upon a part of the garrison employed in cleaning their arms (This maybe was the real reason why the Okinawans asked any boat coming to their shores "to please take this man away from among us").

    The foreigners also more than once noticed "policemen" (chikusaiji or whatever you may call it). Those policemen and spies - as they were identified by the Westerners - have been made into the real protagonists of Ryukyuan weapon arts, especially that of the Bo. However, they made a bad impression by hitting with their clubs the normal, low class people of Okinawa out of the way of the foreigners; or were described as being instrumental in loosening a persons tongue with thrusts of their sticks in a trial; the spies (high classs Pechins) did nothing but record every step the foreigners did; obviously for he account being given to the Satsuma. Other spies, who were to curious, got punched by members of an expedition after trying to run away. While the re-projected stars of Ryukyuan martial arts today, those people must have been as much hated as the Satsuma (who mostly were not even present) are thought of to have been. (of course, Karate was developed by the peasants as a martial arts against the Okinawan police men )

    From the few posts here there seem to be so many assumptions in the book - what good read however it may be - , the first and main of which is Matsumura being a bodyguard in a modern sense, which first has to be proven and described (same words sometomes have different meanings, just like oki. bushi and japan. bushi). It is not possible to draw from Perry or any other western visitor sources a picture of Matsumuras life. There is no counter-evidence to him being a bodyguard of the king, but at the same time, a missing evidence can also not simply be taken as a prove. The king of Ryukyu surrendered the castle of Shuri to some hundred policemen and soldiers. Why? Because that was the Okinawan way and their only possibility to prevent things from becoming much worse than that.

    In this very general view, the book maybe takes the wrong path by overvalueing some very down-to-earth things, which are smart, likeable, ingenious or whatever else; while using historic material (intentionally or unintentionally) to underline the truth of an assumption, which has one big point on its side: it is nearly synonynous with the popular desire of the readers.
    Last edited by Shikiyanaka; 8th June 2005 at 18:06.
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

  4. #34
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    Default Throws in Naihanchi?

    I guess I must have "missed the boat". Never trained throws or takedowns in naihanchi.

    Best,
    Tim Black
    3rd Dan Shorinryu
    Kokusai Shinjinbukan

  5. #35
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    Once upon a time in Okinwawa. Kamadu Quastugusuku, from the garden looking through sensei's window:


    Honestly, I would love to read the book. I love that stuff.
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy.G.B.
    I guess I must have "missed the boat". Never trained throws or takedowns in naihanchi.

    Best,
    Tim Black
    3rd Dan Shorinryu
    Kokusai Shinjinbukan
    There're some nice ones. Well, nice if you're doing them, quite unpleasant if you're the uke. Can roll with some, others, once they're on, you're probably dead.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy.G.B.
    I guess I must have "missed the boat". Never trained throws or takedowns in naihanchi.
    The bunkai we do for Naihanchi one has a full take down in it, and one move that could easily be a takedown. Takara Meiyu Sensei, a 9th Dan from Okinawa showed us about five variations of the opening block and one of them was a throw.
    Respectfully
    Mark W. Swarthout, Shodan

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwood
    The bunkai we do for Naihanchi one has a full take down in it, and one move that could easily be a takedown. Takara Meiyu Sensei, a 9th Dan from Okinawa showed us about five variations of the opening block and one of them was a throw.
    Did the throw follow the elbow strike? 'Cause that's one of my favorites, if so.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  9. #39
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    Default ???

    Shikiyanaka:

    I am unclear as to your intended message in your post with the photo?

    Thanks in advance,
    Tim Black
    3rd Dan Shorinryu
    Kokusai Shinjinbukan

  10. #40
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    Default ???

    Shikiyanaka:
    I am unclear as to your intended message in your post with the photo?
    No message, just pastime. I hope this is ok.
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    Did the throw follow the elbow strike? 'Cause that's one of my favorites, if so.
    The throw at that point was really instead of the elbow strike. Ideally, when you step out, you shoot the arm across to their opposite shoulder while sliding your leg in behind them in one explosive move. Or, less effective, where one might shuffle in a bit to optimize the elbow strike, you can shuffle in with your leg behind theirs, the initial block sliding across their chest to the opposite shoulder and them pivot down. The pivot you do to send in the elbow will pivot them down to the ground.

    Caution! If you attempt to do this, be very aware of your partner's knees! Coming in from the side can do some nasty things if your timing/distance is not right.
    Respectfully
    Mark W. Swarthout, Shodan

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwood
    The throw at that point was really instead of the elbow strike. Ideally, when you step out, you shoot the arm across to their opposite shoulder while sliding your leg in behind them in one explosive move. Or, less effective, where one might shuffle in a bit to optimize the elbow strike, you can shuffle in with your leg behind theirs, the initial block sliding across their chest to the opposite shoulder and them pivot down. The pivot you do to send in the elbow will pivot them down to the ground.

    Caution! If you attempt to do this, be very aware of your partner's knees! Coming in from the side can do some nasty things if your timing/distance is not right.
    Ahhhh. We do that as the safe version of the throw. Here's a nastier one, though, that uses the elbow strike. Same beginning, slide leg behind them, stomping on knee in passing if desired*. Arm is blocking a punch to their inside and slides across the face instead of opposite shoulder. Instead of throwing, elbow to the back of the head. Now we would go to cup and saucer in the kata. We still do so, but first take the hand on their chin and slide it up to their face/eyes to make them tip their head back, grab their hair/forehead with the elbow hand, and tip their head back until it's facing the ceiling (so they lose the horizon and are broken down.) Now, in your mind draw a line from their forehead to their feet. Their knees and back should be arched above this line. When you slam your hands into the cup and saucer, you are slamming them down this line you've drawn, with their back and neck arched and their knees slamming directly into the ground. Since they cannot fall out of this, either knees, neck, or back are going to give.

    To practice this, you can go right up to the point of the throw, and then back off a little and drop them or do the throw really slowly, letting them have time to kick their feet out. You may need to back off the hold on the head for a sec so they can reposition their feet to kick out, since the way you've got them locked will normally prevent this. After that, their knees are out of the way so a gentle throw will slam them on their butt. I still wouldn't go full force on the last cup-and saucer gesture unless you're doing the kata solo, this is really not a good thing to do to the uke. Everything before the last slam is safe, if uncomfortable.

    * I tend to treat more complex waza as recipes, so season to taste with this. Some changes are always necessary with size differences. The throw here's really fairly simple, the problem is, it's hard to describe. Once you see it in action, you get it pretty fast. You need to have some grappling practice to be able to take their weight against you and do the manipulation properly, but it sounds like you've got that already.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  13. #43
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    Default I wonder?

    Blackwood and Trevor:

    I can't help but wonder what the other person is doing while all of this stuff is going on? Have you ever actually tried what you are describing with someone who really wants to fight and is trying to do nasty things to you?

    I think what you are describing sounds interesting, but it also sounds like the person has to let you do these things to them in order for them to work. Starting with the first move, what if the person won't stand there while you slide in behind their leg?

    I felt compelled to ask after reading your posts. Sometimes it can sound like a person is being rude when asking these kinds of questions but please understand I am really curious.

    Best,
    Tim Black
    3rd Dan Shorinryu
    Kokusai Shinjinbukan

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy.G.B.
    I think what you are describing sounds interesting, but it also sounds like the person has to let you do these things to them in order for them to work. Starting with the first move, what if the person won't stand there while you slide in behind their leg?
    Aaaah, THIS question! Knew someone was going to ask it eventually.

    The answer is, you do something else.

    That could use a little expansion, so, as I so love to do, I will go into it in depth. Don't whimper, you did ask!
    One of the things about fighting is that it is inherently chaotic and messy, and someone's inevitably going to do something to try to ruin your dastardly techniques. The way to deal with this is to learn a wide selection of techniques, and then tie them together. Yes, this takes a long time, but then again, it's supposed to. If you know one technique, you need certain circumstances to get it working. This limits you because you constantly need to set up those circumstances. If you're limited to several techniques in one range, ditto.

    However, if you study many techniques at many ranges, you don't have the same intense focus of skills, but now you have many things you can do. The next thing is to learn to tie the techniques together, so that if your opponent struggles, he moves himself into position for something else you know. My sensei's rather good at that; if you ruin the technique he's trying to use, you rarely know it, because he's got another one on you, and he's used your struggles to set you into it. I've been studying for 9 years or so now, and I'm beginning to really link techniques. A lot of beginners try to muscle people into the techniques they know, I would prefer to know the techniques for the positions that you muscle yourself into. Each technique has many, many variations, so studying some of those also helps, because you can pick one of those based on situational variables.

    Let's take the example before us right now, what do you do if they retract the punch and don't let you get the foot behind them. Well, in my favorite version of the technique, you stomp the knee as you go past. This tends to increase the turn in the body and the chance to make the whole thing work. If not, well, at least their knee hurts. If they try to pull back once the leg's there, you can try a basic throw, if they successfully intercept the hand, turn and put your weight on their bent knee to force them down. If they block you right off, pull back yourself and do something else. Never depend on one technique. If you train the variations, you have a clue as to what to do if something goes wrong.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  15. #45
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    Default Another question?

    Thanks Trevor:

    Another question: What happened between the time you decided you were going to hit the person and the time you actually made contact?

    Best,
    Tim Black
    3rd Dan Shorinryu
    Kokusai Shinjinbukan

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